What is your HD Ammo?

[M. Sage]

Did y'all miss the fact this is the shotgun forum, and the OP's question is about HD shotgun ammo?

To be fair, the OP doesn't specify shotgun anywhere in his post.

i'll take those nine that make it through several layers of clothing over those 27 that don't any day of the week.

Clothing is a non-issue. People get hung up on clothing for two reasons I can think of. One is the M1 Carbine "bounced off clothing" myth from the Chosin (there's a lot going on with this one, good topic for a separate post, but suffice it to say... no) and (mostly, IMO) hollow point tests showing heavy clothing to be a weakness for poor designs. For the record, the problem with a poorly designed hollowpoint isn't that heavy clothing reduced penetration; it's that it increases it by clogging the cavity and making the HP perform like an FMJ or round-nose.

Even with heavy clothing, #4 Buck is going to perform just fine. A few layers of denim or a warm jacket (warm jackets and coats are mostly air or they wouldn't insulate for shit) isn't going to slow the stuff significantly.

As far as the more/less wound channel discussion it's not much of an issue. The pattern will be so tight at HD distances that the wound channels will effectively be connected. The good of #4 buck is it won't have as much energy left if/when it exits the bad guy. The bad of it is the pattern gets wider faster, so you increase the risk of pellets going where you didn't point them.

The possibility of pellets going where they're not pointed is one of my top reasons for not recommending a shotgun for home defense. It's much easier to account for lead when you aim and send only one at a time. When you aim and send 9-24 of them in a go, you're opening the door for mistakes.

 

[zentanker]

2 3/4 #1 buck..........“Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 15 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 15 pellets is .964 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 20 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.
In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.” from the box of truth

 

[M. Sage]

2 3/4 #1 buck..........“Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 15 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 15 pellets is .964 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 20 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.
In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.” from the box of truth

BoT got that (or most of it) from IWBA.

 

[zentanker]

So it appears but that was never my point. The only reason I stated that was so that I would be giving credit to the source where I copied the text from. It wasn't meant to be an endorsement of the BoT as having been the first and only originating source of those ideas in the history of the world or internet... I have no interest in e-plagiarism, and I only stated that so that others interested in looking into it would be free to look into it on their own; if I had not stated that, sure as shit someone would have called me out for trying to claim it as my personal own.

 

[M. Sage]

OK.

 

[zentanker]

At any rate, I think the case for #1 buck is pretty solid for several reason. 16x .30 caliber 40 grain projectiles moving at around 1250 FPS isn't anything I would care to be hit with from any reasonable HD engagement range- assuming anything close to good shot placement would make that roughly the same as standing in front of a firing squad of a dozen and a half executioners firing Ruger 10/22s. That being said, none of my shotguns are my primary HD choices. For that I use a Glock 19 loaded with 147 grain HSTs

 

[M. Sage]

I really wasn't trying to jump on you earlier. It was just a link I wanted to point out.

 

[zentanker]

No problem. The BoT quote was the first one I found from Google which pretty well stated my personal reason for liking #1 buck so I just copied from there out of convenience

 

[40Arpent]

The possibility of pellets going where they're not pointed is one of my top reasons for not recommending a shotgun for home defense. It's much easier to account for lead when you aim and send only one at a time. When you aim and send 9-24 of them in a go, you're opening the door for mistakes.

That much we definitely agree on, not to mention the "point it anywhere and shoot and the bad guy is going down" over-confidence factor many people have with HD shotguns. For the rest of you're post, you're just wrong. Lol...j/k

 

[Stumpnav]

2 3/4" #4 Buck from Federal. Distances I would shoot mean the pattern would spread very little, resulting in a quasi monolithic projectile. However, once the load penetrates the target/wall/whatever it would not have much penetration ability left....or so the thinking goes.

all that said, I still prefer the AR loaded with Hornady TAP.

 

[M. Sage]

That much we definitely agree on, not to mention the "point it anywhere and shoot and the bad guy is going down" over-confidence factor many people have with HD shotguns. For the rest of you're post, you're just wrong. Lol...j/k

Hahaha.

Problem with birdshot is it's consistently in the 4-7" penetration range in tests. In the real world, something light like #8 will punch through the skin and not much further. You just aren't very likely to reach (let alone disrupt) vital organs or major blood vessels with the stuff.

The thing about the myth of birdshot "acting like a single solid projectile" is that people don't take into account the difference in viscosity between flesh and air. Air is very low viscosity, flesh is very high by comparison. It spreads that shot out and decelerates it very quickly. It should be a strong hint that flesh will decelerate and stop the shot in the course of a few inches (it will penetrate less in a real person than it will in gelatin), doing what takes air several hundred feet, and even then air fails to stop the stuff completely.

That's why certain rifle bullets won't swap ends midair, but will do so very easily once they hit a living thing. The high viscosity of the medium means you can't stabilize the bullet in the stuff. Someone did the math on it once. To stabilize a typical 5.56mm bullet in something with the viscosity of a person, you'd have to rifle your barrel at about 16 pitch. Yes, the twist would have to be like bolt threads.

The short of it is, if you want to rely on pain and/or fear to stop an attacker, buy bean bag rounds. There's a lot less cleanup and liability than using bird shot and it's just as likely to stop an attacker if not more so, since it's actually designed for that use. Save the birdshot for birds, clays and 3 gun.

 

[zentanker]

Reduced recoil(so they say) 00 buck stays in my pistol grip Mossy 500. Although, I will only shoot that gun if my life did depend on it. It rocks my wrist everytime I shoot it.

do you have some injury or medical issue with your wrist?

 

[Sugar Land]

do you have some injury or medical issue with your wrist?

You don't need that with a pistol grip on a 500 believe me. If I ever have to shoot mine again it will be way too soon.

 

[M. Sage]

Put a stock on it so you can aim properly. It'll reduce the chance of short-stroking under pressure, too!

 

[Sapper740]

My HD Shotgun is a Rem. 870 with a synthetic stock, ghost ring sights, 5 round magazine, 18 1/2" barrel, and an 800 lumen tactical light. I recently bought a case of Sellier & Bellot 12ga. 2 3/4" 00 Buck from UNAC which I'll be patterning at various distances next week. I prefer fewer, larger projectiles over more, smaller shot, but this falls into one of those "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?)" type discussions. I wouldn't want to be hit by ANY 12 ga. load at close range, period!

 

[556.45.12]

Winchester Super-X 12 ga 2 3/4" #1 buck (16 pellet) in both my 28" Wingmaster (10+1) and 18" Express (7+1)

 

[zentanker]

You don't need that with a pistol grip on a 500 believe me. If I ever have to shoot mine again it will be way too soon.

I have a 12 ga persuader. It never bothered me much unless I shot 3 inch magnums. Havent shot it in a liong time though. I prefer my 870 with knoxx specops stock

 

[TrevX]

mossberg persauder 12ga (stock) not PG.


I alternate 00 buck and 3" slugs. meaning....first shot is slug, 2nd 00, 3rd slug, 4th 00, 5th slug.....etc. I could not imagine getting hit with a 3" slug, that thing just looks like it would blow you in half, combined with the felt recoil when you shoot it.

 

[Jakashh]

Did y'all miss the fact this is the shotgun forum, and the OP's question is about HD shotgun ammo?

Nope, didn't realize this was a shotgun section. Thanks for letting me in, i guess.

 

[556.45.12]

For all you 00 buck guys:

Home Defense Shotgun Ammo

"Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and
consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when
fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge
shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional
area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined
cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck
shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to
produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all
shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound
trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely
to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body."

I would take 16 .30 pellets over 9 .33 pellets any day.