Which Shotgun for Home Defense?

[Wabbit69]

Even the military is changing their tactics as urban warfare becomes a primary battlefield. You see a lot more shotguns deployed. You guys are all correct, in a way. What I mean by that is you are all speaking from your own lengthy and practiced experience with a firearm. Many, if not most, in an urban area are not nearly as familiar with a long gun, myself included as I don't own a rifle, YET. In a CQC situation, a rifle isn't much shorter, maybe a few inches or not. Depends on your stock mainly. Also, if you are like myself, you may have multiple family members who are likely going to be scattered in many emergency situations. The biggest thing I worry about is "what could be behind the bad guy(s)?" Or apartments? Rifle can put more innocent people at risk. A rifle may be preferred by a proficient owner, but it's physics with a shotty. It's a large spread, more damage (if it all hits you're getting knocked by 8-9 .32 bullets rather than one rifle caliber), less likelihood of over penetration, and easier to hit what you're aiming at. We're not talking end of the world scenarios, but 1 shotty with 4 rounds is more lethal for a person with the least amount of training.

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From what I've heard, at across the room distances, the spread isn't much. Personally, I would prefer the tightest pattern that I could reasonably acheive. I want ALL of the pellets to enter the BG and increase the chance of hitting cardio-vascular structure, ending the fight quickly. I'm subscribing to the train of though that if you let off the round with a slightly less than perfect sight picture, (probably not an unreasonable assumption in the heat of combat)you can still be assured that most, if not all of the pellets will be deposited in the perp. I've yet to pattern my SG's yet, which is why they are not "deployed" and my go-to is the pistol. I'll talk about that in a minute.

From the ballistics testing that I've read, if you manage to score a hit with 00Buck, I think any pellet that does not bounce off bone has a good chance of exiting the target. How much energy it will have left in it is a good question that I don't have the answer for, but I'm guessing it probably wont have much. As you go down in buck-shot size, you trade penetration for pellet count, which is not necessarily a bad trade-off, until you reach the point that you can't reliably hit vitals. The cut-off point seems to be at #4 Buck. In 12 ga, one really interesting thing is that the geometry works very favorably for #1 Buck. Stepping down from 00, it's a very small decrease in penetration, with a substantial increase in pellet count. Federal just came out with a #1 Buck load for LE.

Sometime soon I'll get out to the only local range that allows buck-shot. I'll be patterning my 12 and 20 to decide what loads I want to run. My "gut" is telling me that I'm going to wind up selecting the 20 Ga with either #3 or #4 buck. I'm trying very hard to keep an open mind, but the little bit of range time and dry practice I've had are pointing me to the 20. I'm also very interested to find out how the 3" #2B feel in the 20. I'm hoping to do this concurrently with some professional instruction.

So, here's my do-list: 1) Professional training with the pistol: 2) Professional training with the SG, along with patterning. After reading the posts on this thread, I have decided that the responsible thing to do is deploy the SG only after this requirement is met. 3) Evaluate and harden the home entry points (concurrently with #1 and #2 as that's probably the most effective home defense to begin with) 4) Purchase CQB rifle after items 1 through 3 are completed 5) Obtain professional instruction for said CQB, then deploy said rifle.

As a mechanical technician, I've found that you can't have too many tools in the toolbox, so long as you know how to use them all.

 

[A.Texas.Yankee]

From what I've heard, at across the room distances, the spread isn't much. Personally, I would prefer the tightest pattern that I could reasonably acheive. I want ALL of the pellets to enter the BG and increase the chance of hitting cardio-vascular structure, ending the fight quickly. I'm subscribing to the train of though that if you let off the round with a slightly less than perfect sight picture, (probably not an unreasonable assumption in the heat of combat)you can still be assured that most, if not all, of the pellets will be deposited in the perp. I've yet to pattern my SG's yet, which is why they are not "deployed" and my go-to is the pistol. I'll talk about that in a minute.
From the ballistics testing, if you manage to score a hit with 00Buck, I think any pellet that does not bounce of bone has a good chance of exiting the target. How much energy it will have left in it is a good question that I don't have the answer for, but I'm guessing it probably wont have much. As you go down in buck-shot size, you trade penetration for pellet count, which is not necessarily a bad trade-off, until you reach the point that you can't reliably hit vitals. The cut-off point seems to be at #4 Buck. In 12 ga, one really interesting thing is that the geometry works very favorably for #1 Buck. Stepping down from 00, it's a very small decrease in penetration, with a substantial increase in pellet count. Federal just came out with a #1 Buck load for LE.
Sometime soon I'll get out to the only local range that allows buck-shot. I'll be patterning my 12 and 20 to decide what loads I want to run. My "gut" is telling me that I'm going to wind up selecting the 20 Ga with either #3 or #4 buck. I'm trying very hard to keep an open mind, but the little bit of range time and dry practice I've had are pointing me to the 20. I'm also very interested to find out how the 3" #2B feel in the 20. I'm hoping to do this concurrently with some professional instruction.
So, here's my do-list: 1) Professional training with the pistol: 2) Professional training with the SG, along with patterning. After reading the posts on this thread, I have decided that the responsible thing to do is deploy the SG only after this requirement is met. 3) Evaluate and harden the home entry points (concurrently with #1 and #2 as that's probably the most effective home defense to begin with) 4) Purchase CQB rifle after items 1 through 3 are completed 5) Obtain professional instruction for said CQB, then deploy said rifle.
As a mechanical technician, I've found that you can't have too many tools in the toolbox, so long as you know how to use them all.

I, too, have read #1 buck to be the desired load. As for spread, I have read about an inch every few feet or so. Waiting to test that theory, but can't find a location that will let me pattern. Elm Fork let me shoot buck, but only right into the backstop. What I found interesting from the articles I've read (one I just posted before yours), you don't gain much advantage from the 3" or magnum shells. I would have thought differently, but that's why I am the reader of such knowledge, not the creator.

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[M. Sage]

From real word research, not by me, it shows shotguns way more devastating and less likely to go through a person with enough energy to keep killing. Granted slug or buck is still going through drywall with ease, but a rifle round may not expand enough at close range to stay inside it's intended recipient. There is more mass weight on target from a shotgun than any rifle. If we were all marksman, then in high stress situations it wouldn't matter what we use would it? A well placed pistol caliber still stops the heart, so in that theory a .22LR works. While a shotty still has to be aimed, a "fist" sized spread (although it will spread greater than that quickly) is more likely to hit it's intended target than a single round less than a quarter inch across. Guys that are trained by the best are trained by people like Massad Ayoob and he recommends that you use a shotty and train with it. We can agree that no matter what you use, practice is key. This is a pretty good article.

Ammunition For The Self-Defense Firearm


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Exsanguination is slow. Even putting a shotgun slug in someone's heart (which basically means deleting their heart), they've got a minute or more to fight and kill you. Central nervous system (CNS) hits work better, and IMO breaking important structures (like the pelvis) comes in second.

The weight of the projectile(s) you're sending downrange doesn't matter except where it's a factor in penetration (general rule - heavier means deeper).

A lot of rifle bullets don't have to expand. One very good choice for home defense in 5.56 is the old M193 load from way back Vietnam era. The 55 grain FMJ bullet penetrates about 1-2", yaws and breaks apart at the cannelure with some pretty drastic fragmentation. Penetration is about 13-16" in ballistic gelatin. http://www.brassfetcher.com/US M193 bare gelatin.pdf 00 buck can go through 20" of the stuff, especially low recoil, and especially plated. http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal... FLITECONTROL performance summary 23MAR11.pdf The low recoil stuff seems to penetrate deeper because the lower velocity means less deformation of the pellets, which is why plated tends to penetrate more, too.

One thing to remember about 5.56 is that rifle cartridges start causing significant damage to things the bullet doesn't even touch at velocities above about 2000 feet/second because of cavitation. The higher resistance of the fluid they're traveling through (AKA "meat") causes the shock wave to be dramatic, stretching everything around the bullet to the point of tearing. The damage bullets doing over 3000 feet/second can do because of this effect is amazing. I've seen case studies of people hit with FMJ in 5.56 where the damage from just a single bullet is horrifying. I also saw an unscientific test on Youtube where someone gave a woman some basic instruction, then tested her at 21 feet against a target with pistol, shotgun and AR. She did way better with the AR.

Something I think is interesting is that hunters have picked up on fragmentation with Berger VLD bullets, which they discovered will penetrate 4" (through the meat) then basically shatter into a million pieces, taking out all the vital organs inside a deer.

 

[M. Sage]

I, too, have read #1 buck to be the desired load. As for spread, I have read about an inch every few feet or so. Waiting to test that theory, but can't find a location that will let me pattern. Elm Fork let me shoot buck, but only right into the backstop. What I found interesting from the articles I've read (one I just posted before yours), you don't gain much advantage from the 3" or magnum shells. I would have thought differently, but that's why I am the reader of such knowledge, not the creator.

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Yeah, 3" shells aren't worth the extra recoil. They'll also open the pattern up some.

 

[Wabbit69]

Exsanguination is slow. Even putting a shotgun slug in someone's heart (which basically means deleting their heart), they've got a minute or more to fight and kill you. Central nervous system (CNS) hits work better, and IMO breaking important structures (like the pelvis) comes in second.

The weight of the projectile(s) you're sending downrange doesn't matter except where it's a factor in penetration (general rule - heavier means deeper).

A lot of rifle bullets don't have to expand. One very good choice for home defense in 5.56 is the old M193 load from way back Vietnam era. The 55 grain FMJ bullet penetrates about 1-2", yaws and breaks apart at the cannelure with some pretty drastic fragmentation. Penetration is about 13-16" in ballistic gelatin. http://www.brassfetcher.com/US M193 bare gelatin.pdf 00 buck can go through 20" of the stuff, especially low recoil, and especially plated. http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal... FLITECONTROL performance summary 23MAR11.pdf The low recoil stuff seems to penetrate deeper because the lower velocity means less deformation of the pellets, which is why plated tends to penetrate more, too.

One thing to remember about 5.56 is that rifle cartridges start causing significant damage to things the bullet doesn't even touch at velocities above about 2000 feet/second because of cavitation. The higher resistance of the fluid they're traveling through (AKA "meat") causes the shock wave to be dramatic, stretching everything around the bullet to the point of tearing. The damage bullets doing over 3000 feet/second can do because of this effect is amazing. I've seen case studies of people hit with FMJ in 5.56 where the damage from just a single bullet is horrifying. I also saw an unscientific test on Youtube where someone gave a woman some basic instruction, then tested her at 21 feet against a target with pistol, shotgun and AR. She did way better with the AR.

Something I think is interesting is that hunters have picked up on fragmentation with Berger VLD bullets, which they discovered will penetrate 4" (through the meat) then basically shatter into a million pieces, taking out all the vital organs inside a deer.

Yes, I'm really starting to like the idea of a rifle. From the research I've done so far, terminal performance from a rifle is going to depend a lot on barrel length (translated to velocity) bullet weight and design, rifling twist rate, range to target, and impact angle. Pretty much, if the projectile penetrates deep enough, yaws and fragments, the fight is over quickly. However, all those variables need to be considered closely for the application. I've read that the military is having mixed results with M855 in CQB situations with SBR's, and have had to adjust their training to include double-taps.
Projectiles from a shotgun will be travelling at maybe just over half the velocity of a 5.56. The lack of stretch cavity is made up for the number of wound tracts made possible (but only if all the pellets hit).

Like you said, exanguination from a single hole is slow, but I think a direct hit to the CNS during combat would be extremly difficult if not nearly impossible (for me, anyway). The shotgun accelerates exanguintation by poking more holes in the blood tank and possibly damaging the pumping and distribution (aorta), while the rifle accelerates it by massive internal damage caused by a stretch cavity. This only happens if the velocity is high enough and the bullet does something other than zip through to make the same size hole on the back-side of the perp.

Gosh, I could go for a nice rib-eye right about now. Hmmm....

 

[Greg_TX]

A slight diversion from the shotgun vs. whatever discussion; at some point during the ammo drought I bought some 000 buck. Aside from penetration issues, how useful is this as a defensive load?

 

[poolingmyignorance]

Heres my thought on the "fragmentation" vs "shot" debate. Why hope for fragmentation to occur and take out organs when you KNOW buckshot is going to? Why rely on the possiblity of dozens of small fragments doing sufficent damage from a rifle round, hoping it doesn't slice through the neighbors walls. And not go with with the guaranty of multiple shots landing on target? I mean your hoping for that effect with the rifel, but your promised it with the shot..whats the debate?

 

[A.Texas.Yankee]

Heres my thought on the "fragmentation" vs "shot" debate. Why hope for fragmentation to occur and take out organs when you KNOW buckshot is going to? Why rely on the possiblity of dozens of small fragments doing sufficent damage from a rifle round, hoping it doesn't slice through the neighbors walls. And not go with with the guaranty of multiple shots landing on target? I mean your hoping for that effect with the rifel, but your promised it with the shot..whats the debate?

+ 1

A slight diversion from the shotgun vs. whatever discussion; at some point during the ammo drought I bought some 000 buck. Aside from penetration issues, how useful is this as a defensive load?

Check my link a few posts back. Good round for defense, but less than 00Buck or #1 Buck. Still pretty close and in real world probably going to knock the thug down.

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[Wabbit69]

Heres my thought on the "fragmentation" vs "shot" debate. Why hope for fragmentation to occur and take out organs when you KNOW buckshot is going to? Why rely on the possiblity of dozens of small fragments doing sufficent damage from a rifle round, hoping it doesn't slice through the neighbors walls. And not go with with the guaranty of multiple shots landing on target? I mean your hoping for that effect with the rifel, but your promised it with the shot..whats the debate?

Good point. I think the short answer is 1) less recoil, 2) faster follow-up shots/target transitions, 3) more ammo before you have to reload.

 

[A.Texas.Yankee]

Good point. I think the short answer is 1) less recoil, 2) faster follow-up shots/target transitions, 3) more ammo before you have to reload.

1) I barely have any recoil (even less if you use a 20 gauge) with mine being semi-auto even with slugs. 2) That's just a matter of training. 3) If you need more than 4 shells of 00Buck to stop and intruder, you're F*cked no matter what because they threat is greater than you can handle. We're talking home defense with maybe a few bad guys on average, not an invasion by another country.

What about the reliability? I guarantee a pump action shotty is more reliable than most rifles.

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[Wabbit69]

1) I barely have any recoil (even less if you use a 20 gauge) with mine being semi-auto even with slugs. 2) That's just a matter of training. 3) If you need more than 4 shells of 00Buck to stop and intruder, you're F*cked no matter what because they threat is greater than you can handle. We're talking home defense with maybe a few bad guys on average, not an invasion by another country.

What about the reliability? I guarantee a pump action shotty is more reliable than most rifles.

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I've got to wonder if the poor OP has gotten the answer he was looking for. Reading the posts, I think we all agree that the SG is very capable of ending the agression of an opponent very quickly, assuming the good guy does his job and selects the ammuntion appropriate for the situation. To answer the OP directly, I don't think you can go wrong with any of the major brands. For me, being a long-gun-lefty makes the top-tang safety of the Mossberg the main factor. I think a 20ga will end the fight just as fast as a 12 ga, but I'll admit my preference might be skewed by by limited stature and experience. I strongly recommend that you try to find out what "fits" you the best and what controls seem the most natural for you to manipulate.

Also, I hope the OP notes that training has been mentioned numerous times during this thread. So much so that I've realized that I don't have enough to guarantee remaining upright during the unthinkable. I'll fix that this year. Hopefully, some of us will meet up at the range.

 

[M. Sage]

I agree about the overlooked 20 gauge. I've hunted and killed whitetail in Michigan, and at close range a 20 would put them down hard if you did your part. Those deer can be very hard to kill.

If you actually hit COM, you have a decent chance of hitting the spine. Hit the spine in the upper body, fight is over. Buckshot does give you a decent chance of this, but I think that pieces of rifle bullet give you a better chance, especially combined with the stretch cavity.

A slight diversion from the shotgun vs. whatever discussion; at some point during the ammo drought I bought some 000 buck. Aside from penetration issues, how useful is this as a defensive load?

Works just fine. Smaller pellet count than 00, but still effective.

Heres my thought on the "fragmentation" vs "shot" debate. Why hope for fragmentation to occur and take out organs when you KNOW buckshot is going to? Why rely on the possiblity of dozens of small fragments doing sufficent damage from a rifle round, hoping it doesn't slice through the neighbors walls. And not go with with the guaranty of multiple shots landing on target? I mean your hoping for that effect with the rifel, but your promised it with the shot..whats the debate?

That's part of the thing. A .223 will cut through fewer walls. Also, the fragmentation effect in that caliber is a guarantee as long as you do your research and select ammo carefully. M193 is one of my choices because I KNOW it'll work.

The debate for me is, cheaper training costs, lower recoil, more tries to get it right, easier handling, lighter recoil (which leads to easier training)...

1) I barely have any recoil (even less if you use a 20 gauge) with mine being semi-auto even with slugs. 2) That's just a matter of training. 3) If you need more than 4 shells of 00Buck to stop and intruder, you're F*cked no matter what because they threat is greater than you can handle. We're talking home defense with maybe a few bad guys on average, not an invasion by another country.

What about the reliability? I guarantee a pump action shotty is more reliable than most rifles.

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I'll put my rifle's reliability up against your pump shotgun, especially when things go sideways. The good thing about an AR or AK is that there's almost zero chance of operator error. The same can't be said for a pump shotgun. If you want to run a pump shotgun in a fight, you really need to train hard with it to make sure you're not going to cause a malfunction.

If it does malfunction on its own, heaven help you. A double feed in a pump would really ruin your day. I can fix it pretty fast with a rifle, though. Not that I've had one in the many (tens of?) thousands of rounds I've fired.

 

[Wabbit69]

If it does malfunction on its own, heaven help you. A double feed in a pump would really ruin your day. I can fix it pretty fast with a rifle, though. Not that I've had one in the many (tens of?) thousands of rounds I've fired.

I got together with a couple of colleagues of mine at a local indoor range a couple of months ago. One of them had his brand new 12 ga pump gun. He managed to get a round stuck in the chamber. I wasn't watching, (it was "Ladies Day" at the range and I was kind of distracted) so I can't tell you if it was operator or fire-arm induced. Either way, he was in posession of a 7 lb club until he got it home and managed to pry the round out.

What I took from this lesson is that any combination of mechanical device and human is subject to failure at the most inopportune time. Backup plans are a good thing.

The other thing that I learned was that women don't tend to react as negatively to being "scoped-out" on the firing line as they do out-and-about. Guess they figure we more understand the consequences of not treating them right.

 

[M. Sage]

Hulls sticking in the chamber isn't all that uncommon. It's usually a rough finish inside the chamber from something like a dull reamer and can usually be polished out. Most of the time, you're going to see it on new shotguns that don't have a lot of shots through them...

 

[Younggun]

I have had that problem, although it was caused by a worn extractor. My system for clearing, rack pump back, dump new shell, slam forward and rack again. If that didn't work I would have to try again while pressing my thumb against the extractor.

Not something that would be fun in a firefight but sometimes after a shell cools alittle it will come on out with another rack, always gonna lose a shell in the process though.

 

[M. Sage]

The only shotgun I've owned that had problems with shells sticking was my old Mossberg 835, and only if I used 3 1/2" shells in it. The extractors wouldn't let the rim of the shell go, so it didn't want to open. I'd usually have to slam the butt into the ground while pulling back hard on the fore end.

Wound up selling that ridiculous thing to my brother. Recoil with 3 1/2" buckshot is crazy. One of my uncles injured himself three times with that shotgun, every time it was recoil-related.

Recoil with 3" mags in that shotgun was nothing. I could shoot them all day long. Ahh, the advantages of 28" back-bored barrel.

 

[macshooter]

I'm hoping the KSG turns out to be a reliable weapon. I think that would be about as good as you can get if it is. Nice and short, and plenty of capacity.

Got a 590 with a short hogue stock, side saddle, buttstock saddle, and an eotech 552 + stream light mounted to the barrel. 21 rounds total. All slugs. Glad I don't live in an apartment.

 

[ROGER4314]

We seem to revisit this topic pretty regularly and my answer is, as always, in the minority. I use a Remington 870 loaded with 00 Buck short mangums hanging loaded and chambered from a small rack on my wall. I loaded short magnum 00 Buck loads for years and have fired cases of the stuff at every possible inanimate object. I know what that the stuff will do and have supreme confidence in 00 Buck as a SD load at SD distances. I do not use 3" or 3 1/2 " loads.

The post about short stroking an 870 Remington is absolutely correct. Do NOT baby that slide! Always rack it hard, fast and completely and that should be part of your training. Incidentally, turn your 870 over and look at the shell lifter in the bottom of the receiver. If there is a "U" shaped cut in the lifter, it is a current design which allows the shell lifter to flex if it jams from short stroking. Short stroking allows the shotgun to feed another round before the previous round is clear. Timing of the new round is controlled by notches in the slide rails. If you bring the slide back just enough to call for another round, it will do exactly that but the short stroke hasn't ejected the fired round. It's not hard to clear but any failure is too much. I pull the barrel which is something you wouldn't want in a home invasion situation. I can hear it now......... " 'Scuse me while I re-install this barrel." Yeah, right.

Remington says that cut in the shell lifter makes clearing the jam easier. I wouldn't know. I rack that slide hard and have not jammed one in over 30 years.

As I type this, is a S&W Sigma in 9mm equipped with laser sights 6" from my hand. There is another identical laser equipped Sigma next to my bed. Each Sigma is loaded and chambered and each has a loaded spare magazine with a flashlight laying next to it. I disregarded all Internet BS chatter about the S&W Sigmas, tested the pistols myself and found them to be bomb proof and reliable as a rock.

My house is very small and I am never more than 3-4 steps away from one of those pieces.

That's the way I play it.

Flash

 

[ROGER4314]

Here's the shotgun rack in the hallway. Handcuffs are for survivors.

We have not covered other tactics with a shotgun. If you miss the BG and hit a door jamb as he enters, the lad will be picking wood out of his body for years! Similarly, a ground strike in front of the BG is real tough on the legs. They aren't fatal hits but that's gonna hurt!

Flash

 

[Wabbit69]

Here's the shotgun rack in the hallway. Handcuffs are for survivors.

We have not covered other tactics with a shotgun. If you miss the BG and hit a door jamb as he enters, the lad will be picking wood out of his body for years! Similarly, a ground strike in front of the BG is real tough on the legs. They aren't fatal hits but that's gonna hurt!

Flash

Another thing to think about is High Ready or Low Ready. I'm thinking that if a BG manages to grab the muzzle as I turn a tight corner I could at least squeeze the trigger and remove a substantial portion of his leg from low ready. Not so from High Ready. Good argument for the pistol.