Worldwide Erosion of Gun Rights

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Chat' started by zembonez, Feb 24, 2008.

  1. zembonez

    zembonez TGT Addict

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    At the risk of setting off a ten megaton bomb right off the bat, let's discuss gun regulations on a global scale. WOO HOO!

    As much as we might not like it, Let's keep politics out of this discussion as much as humanly possible. We all know what the various "left and right" parties stand for. No sense in beating that poor dead horse again. Besides, this is really bigger than that and far more serious.

    FACT:

    Guns as we know them could easily become a thing of the past in our lifetimes if many organizations have their way. In spite of of huge increases in their post ban crime rates, the gun control advocates in many countries stand by their belief that making handguns illegal will somehow stop crime... Logic is not their strong suit, but they have a lot of help.

    It's an uphill battle at this point. Media outlets ominously label anything pro gun as the evil "Gun Lobby" as if we are trying to force feed live grenades to baby seals or throw babies off of Niagara Falls. (neither of which could be TOTALLY dismissed as a bad idea) Well funded lobbyists constantly bombard Washington with anti-gun sentiment and agendas.

    I believe we have to think globally and act locally if we want to stem the inevitable tide of new gun "regulations". The key word here is "WE".

    Is this site a good starting point for Texas gun owners?

    What say ye? The floor is yours.
     


  2. SIG_Fiend

    SIG_Fiend Administrator TGT Supporter Admin

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    On the one hand, the nice thing is that nearly all of the statistics out there, facts, records of incidents involving guns, etc almost always are in support of gun owners. If you look at the history of areas in this country where strict gun legislation has been enacted, gun-free zones have been put up, or what have you typically you almost always see a corresponding increase in violent crime and murder despite the fact that politicians like to say these measures decrease crime. So the fact of the matter is the truth is on our side. Unfortunately too many people in this country, and in the rest of the civilized world for that matter seem to be so opposed to guns and gun ownership purely out of an irrational emotional fear of inanimate objects and far too many people seem to take advantage of this. I mean I completely understand and respect someone's rights to not like or dislike guns, as after all it is a free country. Though when someone dislikes something so much that they try to legislate me out of my constitutional rights to it, let alone something that could actually save my life or a family members should a terrible situation arise.....that is just plain unacceptable. It is just tough, in fact one of the toughest things I've ever had to do in my life to attempt to reason with someone who's beliefs are so governed by emotion rather than common sense that they basically throw logic out the window and ignore the actual facts.

    I am very aware of the UN and it's policies regarding civilian ownership of firearms, and there are even video clips on youtube of UN spokespersons clearly stating that their ultimate goal is to ban all civilian ownership of guns in every country. Needless to say, we have quite a large opposition to our rights from some pretty large organizations, groups, etc. While I feel glad in knowing that we have the truth on our side, it simply will not be enough to protect our rights considering all of those we have fighting against us.

    As far as what we can do to help keep our RKBA? Personally I say join as many pro gun organizations, help participate in assisting pro-gun politicians stay in office and take part in our local communities as much as possible. Myself, I'm an NRA and TSRA member, and to anyone else here in Texas I would recommend joining both or if you live elsewhere at least join the NRA. The TSRA has proved to be incredibly effective in assisting Texas politicians to pass many pro gun laws, especially in '07 with the enactment of the Castle Doctrine. The NRA has also had some great success around the country over the past year with such things as getting the San Francisco handgun ban thrown out of court. Some simple grass roots things we could do would be to ensure that we ourselves are as educated as possible on many of the facts concerning firearms in this country, legal issues, many popular lies and misconceptions out there regarding firearms and to try and educate as many people as we can on the subject. There are some really good resources out there on the net to educate ourselves. One I've found is from none other than the FBI: http://www.fbi.gov/research.htm

    It's pretty ironic that even a reputable federal agency has facts to help substantiate gun owners claims that more guns do not proportionally equal more crime. Heck one of the most convincing things I've found is to compare Austin's crime rate to the District of Columbia's. It's pretty eye-opening to see that a smaller city and the CAPITAL of our country (which by all logic should be the SAFEST place in the country) that has had a handgun ban for the last ~31years still has a significantly higher violent crime and murder rate than a city like Austin with a much larger percentage of gun ownership and larger population. It's just absolutely preposterous that people completely ignore these facts and jump on the gun ban wagon. Here's an overview on these FBI statistics for those interested ('05 and '06 crime rate):

    tn_2005Stats.png

    tn_2006Stats.png

    While their crime categories are rather vague, and due to various different law enforcement programs in different cities designed to combat crime it is tough to determine all of the exact factors determining these rates and how they are affected. One thing is for sure though, here in Austin we have a significantly higher population and a larger percentage gun ownership as well as legal ownership of handguns, concealed carry permits, etc yet on average we have had over a 50% lower violent crime rate, roughly 1/7th or 1/8th as many murders or manslaughter, over 50% less robberies and aggravated assaults, over 50% less vehicle thefts. Surprisingly the number of rapes, arsons, as well as burglaries and other non-violent property thefts seems to be quite high in Austin for some reason however the violent crime rate in my opinion is the main issue. I'm surprised down here that we are able to control all these "evil" handguns, because from what I hear they just randomly go off whenever they feel like it and kill people. :rolleyes:
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    The one thing that has become plainly obvious to me is the fact that many politicians and anti-gun groups are having a bit too much success attempting to effectively legislate us out of our rights to own firearms rather than attempting a much more controversial outright ban. One of these methods that seems to be the popular new thing is bullet serialization and/or microstamping. So far, from what I understand there does NOT currently exist a realistic technology for implementing some sort of microstamping process in firearms, let alone handguns. In California, Governor Schwarzenneger actually signed this bill in, and it is supposed to go into effect in 2010. Unless someone comes up with a realistic technology by 2010 or gets the bill thrown out, basically all new handguns will be illegal in CA as far as I understand. As of late there have been a shocking number of these bills being introduced in states around the US. The whole concept is ridiculous as anyone could find some of your spent shells at a range or wherever, reload them, and then when a crime is committed it means the BATF or whoever blowing your door in at 3am, and then a lengthy legal process trying to prove it wasn't you. Criminals could also simply find spent shells and leave them at a scene to confuse cops. It's just absolutely ridiculous to think this would ever have any effect on crime. CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY THE LAW. Just more laws to hurt the law-abiding, and yet another way to legislate us out of our rights and/or make it that much more of a pain to own firearms. This is what I see as being one of our biggest current threats as well as legislation, taxation, or heavy regulation on ammunition. In the meantime, I'm going to stockpile as many weapons and as much ammunition as I can afford, especially if a Democrat gets elected this time around. ;)

    Oh, one last thing. I honestly think we need to add an amendment to The Constitution specifically concerning an individual's right to defend oneself, their property, and family. As far as I'm concerned, self defense and defense against a tyrannical government were the 2 original purposes behind the 2nd amendment, however I think it should be clearly stated that WE have a right to self defense so that we may have a reasonable assumption of safety. As far as I'm concerned, if we can't even enjoy a reasonable assumption of safety knowing we have the ability to defend ourselves or our family, this is not the country our forefathers envisioned and certainly not the America I want to be part of. While there are plenty of places in the country with laws regarding self defense, concealed carry, etc, I personally think something considerably more substantial like an additional amendment supporting this would really help to weed out some of the BS legislation out there that really serves to do nothing except get people killed or locked up simply for defending themselves.
     
  3. zembonez

    zembonez TGT Addict

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    WELL!

    I'm glad I didn't step on a nerve there T. :D I agree 100% with the vast majority of what you are saying (and I don't disagree 100% with any of it).

    One thing we must keep in mind is that ANYBODY that gets overly emotional on either side of the subject will be labeled a "nut". In order to maintain our rights, We must take the high road. Any attempt to go in "guns blazing" will simply alienate our cause in the eyes of the general population. We have to maintain a steady, cool and collected attitude and continue to use the real facts to our benefit. The splinter groups that refuse to see the facts are not the big issue so long as we steer a steady course in keeping the average guy from falling for their dribble. Like many other things political in this country, they are over-represented by the media. As our population moves to the left, this becomes an ever increasing problem.

    Stockpiling is not an altogether bad Idea in my opinion.
     
  4. Hobie Dog

    Hobie Dog Member

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    Kennedy

    Wow, this is amazing. I specifically logged on to post the latest news on the left and you had already begun the rant. OK, zembonez, I understand that we don't want to look like radical "Nut" cases so I will simply let the article speak for itself from a total Nut on the other side. Fair?
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Kennedy Introduces A Handgun Ban In Congress…Again

    Friday, February 22, 2008

    http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=3561
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    The anti-gun nuts are relentless. They will not give up. Unfortunately, there is a very effective concept that has been used for generations by groups like NEA. Instead of attacking the issue head on they merely chip away a little at a time. The radical Kennedy shoots with outrages controls, which won't pass but in the process pro-gun people will negotiate a deal and only give a little (at a time). The NEA has rewritten the history text books over 50 years by simply omitting one word at a time, each year.

    We need to be as determined to keep our rights as the other side is to destroy them.

    No nerves hit here....
     
  5. zembonez

    zembonez TGT Addict

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    We is nuts?

    For the record:

    I didn't say I didn't WANT to look like a nut... just that it would do large harm to our cause. Hell, I'd like nothing better than a full on butt kicking "guns blazing" war with these nutcases. We'd kick some serious booty, but it would make us look like the bad guys to Mr and Mrs. middle America once our wonderful media outlets got through "reporting" it.

    :mad:

    Kennedy is the poster child for political misdirection. Luckily, he is dismissed by the majority of Americans for being so far out there. Only the far left gives him any real credit for doing much more than creating a dis-proportionally large amount of greenhouse gas.

    I do agree that the left is quite good at seeking compromises that slowly take away our freedoms a tiny bit at a time. Unfortunately, 85% of the population is (or chooses to be) so uninformed that they fall for anything that the politicos tell them is gonna be "FREE".

    There...there... That wasn't too political was it? I think we can use political facts handed to us by the left as material without turning this into an all out political fight. Besides, most everybody in this group isn't ging to disagree....
     
  6. SIG_Fiend

    SIG_Fiend Administrator TGT Supporter Admin

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    Honestly, I really think a law needs to be passed to make it illegal to even attempt to ban guns or unreasonably regulate them. Right now politicians do it, the Supreme Court finds their laws unconstitutional and infringing on rights, and they don't even get a slap on the wrist. I think jail time would be a nice incentive to make them think twice. After all, what we are talking about here is our rights slowly being eroded and taken away. Replace the word "arms" with any of our other constitutional rights such as free speech and you would have the majority of the country screaming at Washington to stop it. Remember it's [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]"....right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", yet for the past 70 some odd years they have slowly been infringed. That is one thing it seems anti-gun people just do not understand. If politicians start infringing with one constitutional right, it's not a far leap for them to start infringing on all of them. Already these days with the level of censorship we see (no doubt due to many idiots with a lack of common sense and no forethought before speaking), city ordinances against protests, etc etc we have lost some of our rights to free speech.

    I too am in agreement that a large part of this fight is in educating our future generations. Heck, I'm only 24 (25 in May) and have a lot to learn, but I look at younger kids today and I'm amazed at how clueless some of them are about a great many things, especially to do with politics. Even worse is many of them seem to not even know enough to remotely be curious and want to learn about history, politics, world history, firearms, or what have you. It is almost as if a larger percentage of them are becoming complacent lemmings at the result of everyone trying so hard to be politically correct these days. This was supposed to be a nation of revolutionaries and free thinkers, though now we are slowly becoming a nation of weak a$$ fools. Sorry for the language but, that's the way I feel on the matter.

    I agree Zembonez, probably the best thing we can do to help our cause is to try to inform the uninformed but, in a calm and reserved manner. I've argued with a few anti-gun and clueless people, and while some of them have been so emotionally blind to the truth that they were beyond reasoning, some people have actually been surprised once they hear all the facts and realize things aren't quite as they are made out by the left or media or elsewhere.
    [/SIZE][/FONT]
     
  7. plinker

    plinker New Member

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    Something to Consider

    As many of you on this forum are likely very conservative, this may have no impact. However, I was reading in the Washington Post to try and find some difference between the voting record of Sen. Obama and Sen. Clinton, both unabashed liberals... The only thing that I could find of some significance was a piece of federal legislation that Hillary Clinton sponsored after the Katrina Tragedy, which was in favor of giving federal authorities the right to confiscate privately owned hand guns in the event of catastrophic natural disasters or acts of terrorism... Sen. Obama voted against it...

    Now Sen. McCain's stance on gun control remains unchanged and in our favor, having never voted for any federal gun control legislation. The shooting sports and ideas of gun ownership for self and family protection remain strong in Arizona.

    As the Texas primaries are March 4th, I find myself in a kinundrum as to whether I'll vote for Hillary in the democratic primary, just because I think McCain has a better chance of beating her in the general election. I also like the idea of letting the democrats bash it out and exhaust all their resources prior to their convention, taking the chance that the Obama supporters may feel disenchanted should the Clinton Machine take control of the DNC...:eek:

    What say you my learned blood brothers?
     
  8. zembonez

    zembonez TGT Addict

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    McCain - Obama - Hillary

    OK... so this is getting political. I knew going in it was impossible to separate. Who was I trying to fool?

    Although I find it increasingly difficult to find any real differences between the political parties, I must concur with the assumption that McCain has a much better chance against Hillary (and is the obvious choice when it comes to gun issues). That said, the Clinton campaign may well be beyond the point of repair.... It isn't looking good. Unless there is a huge swing in the vote on March 4th, I think she will pull out of the race.

    Where does that place us? An Obama / McCain contest might get tricky.

    I have a theory. I believe the Republican old guard is giving McCain his "shot" at a time when they are actually willing to throw the election and let the Dems win. The result of this likely being a swing back to a Republican majority in the 2010 house and senate elections. Traditionally, there is a swing somewhat in the other party's direction after the election of a President. Remember when Bill got in? The next elections netted the republicans majority status not seen in decades prior. When Papa Bush was "running" for a second term, Republican campaign offices in many states closed up shop weeks prior to their primary dates... Can somebody explain that? The Dems certainly kept theirs up and roaring through election day.

    I know this reeks of "conspiracy theory" but that isn't where I am going with this. It may well just be political positioning at its finest.

    I encourage each of you to go read this website from cover to cover. You will see what supreme wacko nutjobs we are up against... VPC
     
  9. plinker

    plinker New Member

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    A gun in the hand...

    Well, perhaps this is a bit political and may indeed reek of conspiracy... However, I'm not willing to hand over my second amendment rights to the liberals with nothing but a whimper.

    With Teddy Kennedy proposing new legislation, Hillary already on board with the gun control lobby and Obama in the whitehouse, I can't see where people of sound minds can prevail. The gradual erosion may well become a tsunome.

    The traditional swing of periodic party control may well favor the liberal democrat now, but only if traditional conservatives, libertarians and republicans sit on their hands and do nothing...

    Even the U.S. Economy favors a balance of power. I'll take my chances with a McCain v. Clinton battle. Seven of the eight major polling agencies show McCain as the clear winner if Clinton manages to steal the primary.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ep...s/general_election_mccain_vs_clinton-224.html

    Take a deep breath, drink a bottle of Malox, and vote Hillary in the March 4th primary...:cool:
     
  10. ReVrEnD_0341

    ReVrEnD_0341 Active Member

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    What we have here is a failure for the quiet masses to unass themselves from the couch, stop complaining, and getting out to voice the opinion of the nation. It is not that our country is left leaning, and left wingers are the majority. It is, in fact the opposite. The ONLY reason we are in the predicament we are in today is because we have failed ourselves and let the vocal minority walk all over us. However, there is light at the end of the tunnel folks. Let me explain...

    Though the legislative branch of our nation is loosely held by the democratic party, and left is their way, pro gun/guns rights is the rule. 55 Senators, and 250 represenatives both Dem and GOP alike have pettitioned the SCOTUS to uphold the lower courts decision and kill the Washington DC firearms ban.

    Do some research, and look back on as many Rasmusen, and like polls done. The vast majority of people in our Union are in fact pro gun, and are in fact tired of what has been going on in the legislative wing of our government. Osama Obama is correct. It's time for change, and the beast is coming alive.

    We know how to defeat the enemy, but the only way we can do that is to get loud. Get very loud. Remember, the federal government does not rule the people here. The people rule the government.

    Lt. Col. David Grossman made some fine observations in his book "On Killing" (ironic, I know) We mistakenly are told that in dangerous situations, we have the "fight or flight" response. How ever in combat, its not nessesarily fight or flight. There is fight posture sumbit or flee. One of the most useful tools to those in combat is posturing. In WWII and Korea, many battles were won by simple posturing of the Allied soldiers. In many cases there were vastly outnumbered, however they made lots of noise. Yelling, blowing up hand grenades, and completely drowning out the battle cry of the enemy. And the enemy would flee with little to no actual hostile action being made.

    Our adversary in this fight is weak. The weakest people the earth has ever known. They would rather die than protect themselves, or their family. They would rather submit to, and negotiate with terrorists instead of shooting them in their ****ing faces. They are outnumbered, undergunned, and on the wrong side of the facts. We are skilled, strong, level headed people that would rather die free, and die in defense of our families then to submit to the criminals and imbecills that wish to destroy the United States as it is meant to be.

    In order to make a difference, and be able to live a free, secure life, we MUST stand up and make the noise. Sound the battle cry, and not give up until the war for our rights as human beings is won. This is EXACTLY how the civil rights movement made the victory, with the help of the GOP.

    Remember, its "WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA", and its damn time we start acting like it.

    p.s. Yes I am a bit abrasive at times, and have a foul mouth. Trust me, I am holding back. And no, I will not appologise if I have ruffled feathers. Not my style. ;)
     

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