Yugoslavia

[franzas]

Man all those poor refugees clamoring to get into the UN camps. Gross. The UN sitting around while thousands died...sickening. Russian intervention stopped the violence temporarily then we apparently figure out blue helmets dont stop violence.

did you expect much else from the UN?

 

[franzas]

Frontline on Kosovo

Part 1: Documentary Kosovo War part 1 of 4 - YouTube
Part 2: Documentary Kosovo War part 2 of 4 - YouTube
Part 3: Documentary Kosovo War part 3 of 4 - YouTube
Part 4: Documentary Kosovo War part 4 of 4 - YouTube

 

[breakingcontact]

Thanks Franz, ill check it out.

 

[majormadmax]

The UN had its hands tied and really couldn't do much to intervene.

If you really want to "understand" the war in Bosnia, find the movie No Man's Land. It probably portrays the idiocy/ridiculousness of it all better than any film I've seen!

 

[breakingcontact]

The UN had its hands tied and really couldn't do much to intervene.

If you really want to "understand" the war in Bosnia, find the movie No Man's Land. It probably portrays the idiocy/ridiculousness of it all better than any film I've seen!

I'll look for that.

I know it's like most war and just insanity and ego by leaders and a lot of innocent people being used and killed. I hate it.

I read the inflation there was worse than Weimar Germany, but I haven't studied that.

 

[Shotgun Jeremy]

Ok, so here's what I heard from that guy.

It was in 1994. I'm going to just cut/paste what he told me. It didn't all come out in the order that it happened, so there's chunks. I'm going to try and organize them in chronological order to tell the story. He must have been telling me about this over the phone, so I did go in and make spelling/punctuation edits. Everything else is told in the words of a survivor.

Me- "Before this happened, what was the gun situation like in Serbia? Were citizens ever allowed to have them? Was there ever a slow removal of gun rights?"

------

Him-"Because Yugoslavia was made of several countries -Serbia being the biggest- only Serbians were allowed to own firearms. The only people in Bosnia and Croatia (who owned guns) were people who disobeyed the confiscations and kept them hidden in their attics. The Bosnian and Croatian military were given the older other states' firearms while the Serbs got the brand new perfect rifles."

"I've witnessed first hand what happens when the government are the only ones who have weapons and unfortunately history is doomed to repeat itself. Though there are going to be the people who say oh it can't happen here, when we were rounded up right before the shooting people were talking about rumors of what the Serbs were doing but "oh that never could happen here" was the answer over and over. "

"The city I was in had very little defense. The Serbian military rolled into town and started collecting all non-Christian and non-Serbian civilians and loaded us onto buses saying we were being moved to a camp. When they stopped in the field, they said we needed to swap to different vehicles to get to the camp and they said it would take time. So I spent about fifteen minutes helping a guy who caught a bullet when they got to town, then I went looking for my friends"

"When we were rounded up I was trying to find a friend and happened to be in the center of the 200 people. When the Serbian military opened up guy standing behind me acted as a shield and that's how they didn't see me when they shot all the survivors."

"I was buried alive in a mass grave with a hole in my arm and we're the violent ones. I have first hand knowledge of what happens when the government has all of the power but they don't want opposing views."

"The rifle I was shot with was a m72 rpk"

After I had posted his story in my FB Group, he gave me one last bit of info-

"I must note I just saw the post they aren't only armed with the m72. They had armor- a few people got hit by 20mm rounds"

 

[Sapper740]

did you expect much else from the UN?

Part of the problem is that the United Nations Charter, especially Chapter VII is non-binding in that it allows every Nation to apply their own set of "requirements" before they take action in any peacekeeping mission, hence there can be varying levels of urgency to respond to any situation. Add to that the U.N. is an extremely polarized organization with political extremes having both a voice and a veto in the Security Council. It's no wonder the U.N. is practically useless. I witnessed it first hand when I was a member of the Canadian Contingent to UNDOF (United Nations Disengagement Observer Force) in the Golan Heights. It took forever for the Force Commander to make a decision as the sensitivities of every country involved (Israel, Syria, Canada, Poland, Austria, and Japan) had to be considered before action was taken.

 

[TheDan]

It is some zealous radicals that convinced them that the neighbor that they had lived next to contently for decades was suddenly their enemy because of some made-up incident that happened centuries prior.

It seems like that happens all too often. Tyrants seeking power will find imaginary crap to divide people on. What amazes me is the speed and willingness of people seem to fall for it. The main lesson we should take away from this is not how people will fracture and take sides, but to be weary of the people who are always making "us vs. them" arguments. *cough*cough*breakingcontact*cough*

 

[breakingcontact]

It seems like that happens all too often. Tyrants seeking power will find imaginary crap to divide people on. What amazes me is the speed and willingness of people seem to fall for it. The main lesson we should take away from this is not how people will fracture and take sides, but to be weary of the people who are always making "us vs. them" arguments. *cough*cough*breakingcontact*cough*

Oh I firmly believe it is "us vs them". Libertarianism is based in some root belief that people are good. People arent good and need to be governed and controlled (to whatever extent) and by some benevolent means (when possible) with their consent and input (in so far as is possible).

I also notice you are weary of me and not just wary!

 

[franzas]

Just watched the Kosovo Frontline. Not great. It was definitely an outsider's view. It was more a history of the US's (and to a lesser extent, NATO's) response to the situation, rather than a neutral, historical "why" point of view.

I'd look for another documentary. Normally Frontline is more in-depth than this.

 

[TheDan]

I also notice you are weary of me and not just wary!

both

The idea that people need to be "governed and controlled" goes against the idea of self governance that these United States were founded on. If people aren't responsible enough to self govern, then they are not responsible enough to have any input in their government. We might as well just go back to a monarchy.

 

[breakingcontact]

We might as well just go back to a monarchy.

OK. Wait? We havent already?

I agree our government should be as small as practicable and as participatory as possible.

A virtuous people can rule themselves. Our country has increasingly shown a lack of virtue by its citizenry and has therefore slipped farther and farther from self governence, the masses clamoring for more and more.

I think libertarianism is like socialism. It works great if people are in true agreement. Its practical in an extremely small group, like if you and I are neighbors we can agree to leave each other alone or to freely share our gardens' produce. Keep trying to scale that up and it all falls apart.

I was thinking about that just the other day. How long did it take the country to really start getting away from the founders ideals? Because id argue by the Civil War it was already pretty far gone, especially with the illegal stuff Lincoln pulled.

 

[mosin]

The US will not balkanize, and we most likely will not break up we will just keep drifting downward and toward socialism. Our problems are not north vs south, or Texas against California. Our problems are rural vs urban and with land values always climbing as wages stay stagnant only inherited land remains in the hands of conservative rural Americans. Only pretty well off urbanites can afford tend to be able to afford land for the most part. They then tend to take their liberal ideologies with them and slowly will infest even the rural school systems and governments.

 

[franzas]

OK. Wait? We havent already?

I agree our government should be as small as practicable and as participatory as possible.

A virtuous people can rule themselves. Our country has increasingly shown a lack of virtue by its citizenry and has therefore slipped farther and farther from self governence, the masses clamoring for more and more.

I think libertarianism is like socialism. It works great if people are in true agreement. Its practical in an extremely small group, like if you and I are neighbors we can agree to leave each other alone or to freely share our gardens' produce. Keep trying to scale that up and it all falls apart.

I was thinking about that just the other day. How long did it take the country to really start getting away from the founders ideals? Because id argue by the Civil War it was already pretty far gone, especially with the illegal stuff Lincoln pulled.

The definition of 'libertarian' is so stratified, it would never work. It ranges from constitutionalists, to the [bullshit] Libertarian party to pissed off people too scared to call themselves a democrat or republican, liberal or conservative. End result- you have "libertarians" fighting "libertarians"

Dude, I'm totally cool with a confederation of states, or bring back the Republic of Texas!
Either way, something needs to be done about the overreaching big .gov

 

[TheDan]

OK. Wait? We haven't already?

Well, we have more of an oligarchy now supported by government sanctioned cartels. You like that, tho?

I think libertarianism is like socialism. It works great if people are in true agreement. Its practical in an extremely small group, like if you and I are neighbors we can agree to leave each other alone or to freely share our gardens' produce. Keep trying to scale that up and it all falls apart.

To franzas point libertarianism means different things to different people, but the basic ideas can be nothing like socialism. Liberty is voluntary and socialism is forced. Either way, the argument you're making is to have government as small as possible. If anything works on a small scale, then that's where it needs to stay. That's the opposite of controlling people as you said earlier.

I was thinking about that just the other day. How long did it take the country to really start getting away from the founders ideals? Because id argue by the Civil War it was already pretty far gone, especially with the illegal stuff Lincoln pulled.

Pretty much immediately. I find it very hypocritical that the same man that led people in revolt over unfair taxes supported unfair taxes being levied in his new government and crushed the revolt that was rising up against them.


You're whole "us vs. them" mentality really bewilders me some times. If you made a checklist of things that separate you from other people that place them in the "them" category, I'd probably tick off 80% of those. ...but you know we get along just fine, and if we ever found ourselves in a sticky situation together I'd have your back.

 

[shortround]

From my time in Bosnia 1997-1998, I can only say that this was a religious war. All the peoples of the region -- Croatia, Republika Srpska (not to be confused with Serbia), and Bosnia fought over territories to establish dominant religious enclaves. The Croats: Roman Catholic. The Bosniacs: Muslim. The Srpskas: Orthodox Christian.

All participants of the conflict were of the same ethnicity but of different religions. (Think back to the Thirty-Years War in Europe (1618-1648).

Not one European nation wanted to get involved in this family cat fight. It was not until Iran backed the Bosniacs (Muslim) that Clinton unilaterally acted to send U.S. troops into Bosnia. He sent special forces and the 1st Armored Division in as the vanguard.

NATO finally contributed troops, and sadly, the entire weight of the United States and and NATO came down on the side of the Muslims.

When German citizens were under attack by Muslims in neighboring Kosovo, they launched the bulk of their combat force in Bosnia to rescue them. They did so without notifying their NATO headquarters in Sarajevo.

I recall another incident where the Immediate Reaction Force was ordered to the site of a mass demonstration between Bosniacs and Srbskas at an open market. The force never got there, because it's national authorities did not consent to the employment of those troops over a local dispute.

Just before my departure, I had to visit Tuzla Base and observed a riot of Russian soldiers. The replacement battalion arrived at a highly developed U.S. installation, and the soldiers who had to go home refused to go. They had it better on a U.S. installation than in Russia.

Within this whole framework, the United States turned its back on Christians, the Russians backed the Orthodox Church (Srpska), and the Italians bent over backwards to protect Roman Catholics.

It was not a bright moment in American or NATO history. The only reason things never got worse, was because all sides had bled themselves almost into extinction.

Another example of Democrats at the helm.

 

[Savage805]

You're whole "us vs. them" mentality really bewilders me some times. If you made a checklist of things that separate you from other people that place them in the "them" category, I'd probably tick off 80% of those. ...but you know we get along just fine, and if we ever found ourselves in a sticky situation together I'd have your back.

+1

 

[breakingcontact]

I just read an article on a different topic about believing in a "third way" vs viewing the issue as binary which then sets up an "us versus them" scenario.

http://www.albertmohler.com/2014/06...ts-face-a-moment-of-decision-and-so-will-you/

 

[breakingcontact]

Here is another example of the binary reality. http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/ted-cr...lt-on-the-first-amendment-1401662112?mobile=y

If you dont believe in R vs D we can substitute some composite framework of small gov promoting elected officials vs big gov.

 

[Savage805]

I just read an article on a different topic about believing in a "third way" vs viewing the issue as binary which then sets up an "us versus them" scenario.

There Is No ?Third Way? ? Southern Baptists Face a Moment of Decision (and so will you) ? AlbertMohler.com

Can't get to the second article.

Despite the hard line attitude I can still truthfully say, I would have your back.