Conceal carry 5" 1911

[Richard B]

I carry an ATI Light weight double stacked Fatboy it has a 3.1" barrel I am 5"10 about 240 the only problem i had was when I carry my full size was the mag well would stick out. I carry my compact inside the pants at 4 oclock fullsize I carry at 5 or 6 thats what is comfortable for me. View attachment 20598

What do you do when you get in a car? I have several concerns and would appreciate your insight.

It seems that a 4/5/6 o'clock carry might not be comfortable, would possibly interfere with seat belts and so on. Lastly, there is the potential for injury to your back or hip if in a serious accident.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Richard B]

+1 to the good belt. I know of a company that makes an awesome belt. I actually own two of their's too.

...and its name is? ;-)

 

[TexasRedneck]

I tote mine at about 3-3:30 w/o a problem. Carry everything from compacts to full-size, all C-1. Takes some getting used to, but once you are, you ain't worried about it - the safety system on a 1911 is GOOD.

 

[RstyShcklfrd]

...and its name is? ;-)

Ares Gear. I use their Ranger Belt. One of my belts is brand new, and the other is a little over a year old. It still looks as new as the day I got it. It's a very stiff belt; holds gear quite nicely.

Sent carelessly from Joe Biden's balcony

 

[General Zod]

OK, so here's a question I haven't found a good answer to so far. Why is "condition 2" - chambered with the hammer down - a bad way to carry a 1911? Besides the issue of de-cocking the pistol that TXI brings up.

I don't carry concealed, but when I do wear my 1911 it's with the chamber empty - generally, anything I'm gonna have to shoot when I'm carrying will make enough noise on approach that I can draw and chamber with no worries. But I have been wondering.

 

[Acera]

General Zod, the second problem I hear from some people about carrying with a round in the chamber and hammer down is that on a 1911 you will have to expend time to cock it.

 

[Jon Payne]

OK, so here's a question I haven't found a good answer to so far. Why is "condition 2" - chambered with the hammer down - a bad way to carry a 1911? Besides the issue of de-cocking the pistol that TXI brings up.

I don't carry concealed, but when I do wear my 1911 it's with the chamber empty - generally, anything I'm gonna have to shoot when I'm carrying will make enough noise on approach that I can draw and chamber with no worries. But I have been wondering.

Cocking a 1911 is not as positive as thumb cocking a Peacemaker. Are you sure you'll have two hands to run the slide if you have to use the pistol to save your life? De-cocking a 1911 is not that big of a deal, but it wasn't designed to be de-cocked and carried hammer down. The safest way to carry a 1911 is condition 1 cocked and locked. Is there any reason you feel safer carrying condition 2? Are there any advantages to carrying condition 2? The 1911 was my duty weapon from 2000 - 2008, I carried it condition 1 or not at all.


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[General Zod]

It's mostly just a source of confusion for me - I've always heard to never, ever carry a 1911 condition 2, but never heard the justification for it. I was wondering if there was a safety issue there from a standpoint of the pistol's design, or...well, I dunno.

I usually carry condition 3 simply because it means not having to chamber a round, then eject that round once the gun goes back into the case when I'm done. I may shoot one time out of ten that I carry, and I've seen evidence that repeatedly chambering a round isn't good for the ammunition. I don't store my guns with a chambered round.

I am fairly confident that I'll have two hands available to rack the slide should I need to - the threats I might face while carrying would be from feral hogs, wild dogs, or coyotes while hiking and the undergrowth is thick enough that nothing can move quietly there.

 

[Big Dipper]

Cocking a 1911 is not as positive as thumb cocking a Peacemaker. Are you sure you'll have two hands to run the slide if you have to use the pistol to save your life? De-cocking a 1911 is not that big of a deal, but it wasn't designed to be de-cocked and carried hammer down. The safest way to carry a 1911 is condition 1 cocked and locked. Is there any reason you feel safer carrying condition 2? Are there any advantages to carrying condition 2? The 1911 was my duty weapon from 2000 - 2008, I carried it condition 1 or not at all.


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Actually that is not true. JMB did design it to be carried with the hammer down on a loaded chamber.

Please read the description on page 7 starting with line 8 of JMB's patent application -- Patent US984519 - MREARM - Google Patents which begins

"Heretofore in the pistols of this class when the hammer was cocked ready for firing, and it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without allowing it to touch the firing pin, ..."

He goes on to explain how the entire operation can be done one-handed by means of the thumb pulling the hammer down onto the extension of the grip safety causing the grip safety to be depressed and the trigger free to be pulled. (Note: this is not necessarily available on modern copies of the original 1911 design.)

Only after the US Army insisted on the inclusion of the thumb safety did the (now preferred) ability to carry in Condition 1 become a possibility.

 

[arordonez84]

What do you do when you get in a car? I have several concerns and would appreciate your insight.

It seems that a 4/5/6 o'clock carry might not be comfortable, would possibly interfere with seat belts and so on. Lastly, there is the potential for injury to your back or hip if in a serious accident.

Thanks in advance.

On Long Trips it goes on the side door but I really never had a problem with the seatbelt I see where you are coming from though. How do you carry Inside outside position?

 

[Jon Payne]

Actually that is not true. JMB did design it to be carried with the hammer down on a loaded chamber.

Please read the description on page 7 starting with line 8 of JMB's patent application -- Patent US984519 - MREARM - Google Patents which begins


He goes on to explain how the entire operation can be done one-handed by means of the thumb pulling the hammer down onto the extension of the grip safety causing the grip safety to be depressed and the trigger free to be pulled. (Note: this is not necessarily available on modern copies of the original 1911 design.)

Only after the US Army insisted on the inclusion of the thumb safety did the (now preferred) ability to carry in Condition 1 become a possibility.

You're splitting hairs. If it doesn't have a grip safety and sear locking safety it's not a 1911. At least not one that was ever issued anyway.


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[Big Dipper]

You're splitting hairs. If it doesn't have a grip safety and sear locking safety it's not a 1911. At least not one that was ever issued anyway.


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I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear enough.

With some of the more recent incarnations, you cannot pull the hammer back (and down) far enough to fully depress the grip safety. Their range has apparently been limited to prevent this. That is the case with a S&W 1911 I have and a SA RO.

I can definitely do that though with a 1911 I have that was manufactured in 1914 (as per the patent application)

 

[General Zod]

OK, so, is there a mechanical or safety related reason that Condition 2 is considered a "no-go" for 1911 owners? I'm honestly curious about why this is a bad idea. The patent would seem to indicate that it's not - assuming that production 1911's don't differ significantly from the patented version. But I'd like some more input so I can understand the issue.

Lord knows I'm not gonna go experimenting with my 1911 to see if it really is a bad idea or not...

 

[Jon Payne]

OK, so, is there a mechanical or safety related reason that Condition 2 is considered a "no-go" for 1911 owners? I'm honestly curious about why this is a bad idea. The patent would seem to indicate that it's not - assuming that production 1911's don't differ significantly from the patented version. But I'd like some more input so I can understand the issue.

Lord knows I'm not gonna go experimenting with my 1911 to see if it really is a bad idea or not...

GZ, remember that patent model was never issued. Here's the skinny. Anything series 70 or pre series 70 have no firing pin block. Even carried in condition 1 there's a chance no matter how slight if dropped directly on the muzzle a inertia fire could result. As far as condition 2 being unsafe; pressing the trigger and lowering the hammer on a live round can cause problems unless extreme caution and a safe backstop are used. It is simply not efficient for me to carry a 1911 in any condition other than condition 1. Every other condition is slower and carries their own nuances. Again, I have to wonder what would make condition 2 a good idea.


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[kyletxria1911a1]

should i show what lowering a 1911 hammer does to the tv wall, dresser, mirror,and missing my wife by inches, cond 2

 

[Big Dipper]

And it is in large part because of that slowness that Jon Payne refers to that JMB took out this subsequent patent Patent US1070582 - TIKE ABM - Google Patents for the "novel improvements" which included the thumb safety which then allowed for the preferred Condtion 1 carry.

On page 2 line 113 JMB wrote

Experience, however, has shown that the exigencies of active military service make it at time necessary the the pistol be carried ... with a loaded cartridge in the barrel, a charged magazine in its seat and with the hammer cocked, so as to still remain ready for instantly firing a maximum number of shots without requireing any initial movement, except the pulling of the trigger.
... an additional manually operated combined slide-lock and hammer-lock of novel construction and with additional functions...

 

[Jon Payne]

Big Dipper, thanks for pointing out JMB's original patent. Learn something new everyday. Still glad the Army asked for the sear locking/thumb safety though.


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[Big Dipper]

I'm glad you found it interesting!

I think that it is also quite interesting that the "final" version of the 1911 (including the modifications in the second patent) was in actual production for about 2 years before he even applied for the second patent (4/23/1913). Probably because everyone was just a bit more trusting back then.

 

[Richard B]

Perhaps someone can confirm/deny this, but the most frequent story I heard about condition 2 carry was that some departments did not want the cocked hammer because of PR considerations.

 

[Jon Payne]

Perhaps someone can confirm/deny this, but the most frequent story I heard about condition 2 carry was that some departments did not want the cocked hammer because of PR considerations.

The one's I know of that were worried about cocked and locked just didn't authorize the 1911 to be carried and there were allot of them. Some other dept's required you qualify at a minimum of expert to carry the 1911 when scores were still recorded. For a few of us it was a "badge of honor" to carry the 1911 and was "proof" you were more than just a fair hand with the slab-sided pistol. Of course one of my early teachers of pistol-craft was a graduate of Gunsite and a follower of Jeff Cooper. Another man I learned allot from was a Deputy of Sheriff Buford Pusser/Walking Tall fame.