Israel and Hamas Conflict; The Politics and More

[Cool 'Horn Luke]

Sometimes the two bullies have to fight it out to the end, and everyone else on the street corner have to let it work itself out. Been happening forever.

 

[General Zod]

I've been doing some research in order to figure out what I should actually think about Israel vs Hamas. I learned there is so much ideology and misinformation on both sides that the only way to determine what is true and how to proceed requires a better understanding of history (politics) first. Here are some interesting things I learned so far:

About 2000 yrs ago, the first people to settle the area now referred to as either Israel and the territories or Palestine--depending on which side you are on--spoke Hebrew and practiced Judaism, They called this land Judea. The Romans then conquered and colonized Judea, persecuting the Jews and, as an insult to them, renamed the land Palestine in honor of Judea's main enemy--the Philistines from Greece (they were like the Vikings of the Med--raiding and pillaging cities from the sea). Recall the Romans are the ones who crucified Jesus during this time of occupation. The Ottomans (modern day Turkey) later conquered the Romans and occupied this area, then the British once it and its allies defeated Turkey and its allies in WWII. During the time of occupation, the Jews were persecuted and many left hoping to one day return when the occupations were over. Some stayed and continued to be persecuted. Others converted to Islam (about 1500 years ago when Islam was founded) and stayed. After WWII (in 1948), the Brits created Israel from the remaining lands that it had under its control, and put us on the collision course we see today, as millions of Jews returned to their "homeland" and the Palestinians who were hoping to now govern the land themselvles now that they were free of Britain saw themselves as having to fight another occupier--Israeli Jews.

Despite having to respond to the attacks of its Arab and Palestinian neighbors, Israel's desire is to govern the area in a way that does not discriminate or persecute any people or religion. For example, there are Palestinians (non-Jews) who are elected members of Israels parliament. However, its official position is it supports a two state solution, where there are some lands to be goverened by a Palestinian government and some lands to be goverened by a Jewish government. Any solutions proposed so far have been shot down by the Palestinian Authority/Hamas. For example, years ago, Israel forcibly moved all Israeli citizens out of Gaza when Gaza elected Hamas to govern it. What we see today is Hamas used this time to siphon all the aid sent by the UN and EU that was used to make Gaza a model for a future two-state solution to prepare for the attacks of 7 Oct.

So I believe Israeli Jews have the strongest claim to the land. However, the Palestinians have claimes that are several hundred years less strong, and this counts for something. How do you get the Palestinians and Israelis to share governance and live in peace either in a single Israeli governed state, or a two state peaceful coexistance when there is a Palestinian Authority and Hamas that wants it all even if this means removing all Jews from the land?

It's hard to find a compromise when one side's goal involves killing everyone on the other side.

Consider also that Hamas leadership has stated that they have no interest in governing. They exist only to destroy Israel and slaughter its people.

Hamas leaders admit no interest in governing Gaza, want permanent war with Israel: report

Top leaders of Hamas have expressed little interest in governing the Gaza Strip or its people and admitted their desire for a permanent war with Israel.

www.google.com

 

[Johnny Diamond]

I've been doing some research in order to figure out what I should actually think about Israel vs Hamas. I learned there is so much ideology and misinformation on both sides that the only way to determine what is true and how to proceed requires a better understanding of history (politics) first. Here are some interesting things I learned so far:

About 2000 yrs ago, the first people to settle the area now referred to as either Israel and the territories or Palestine--depending on which side you are on--spoke Hebrew and practiced Judaism, They called this land Judea. The Romans then conquered and colonized Judea, persecuting the Jews and, as an insult to them, renamed the land Palestine in honor of Judea's main enemy--the Philistines from Greece (they were like the Vikings of the Med--raiding and pillaging cities from the sea). Recall the Romans are the ones who crucified Jesus during this time of occupation. The Ottomans (modern day Turkey) later conquered the Romans and occupied this area, then the British once it and its allies defeated Turkey and its allies in WWII. During the time of occupation, the Jews were persecuted and many left hoping to one day return when the occupations were over. Some stayed and continued to be persecuted. Others converted to Islam (about 1500 years ago when Islam was founded) and stayed. After WWII (in 1948), the Brits created Israel from the remaining lands that it had under its control, and put us on the collision course we see today, as millions of Jews returned to their "homeland" and the Palestinians who were hoping to now govern the land themselvles now that they were free of Britain saw themselves as having to fight another occupier--Israeli Jews.

Despite having to respond to the attacks of its Arab and Palestinian neighbors, Israel's desire is to govern the area in a way that does not discriminate or persecute any people or religion. For example, there are Palestinians (non-Jewish Israeli citizens) who are elected members of Israels parliament. However, its official position is it supports a two state solution, where there are some lands to be goverened by a Palestinian government and some lands to be goverened by a Jewish government. Any solutions proposed so far have been shot down by the Palestinian Authority/Hamas. For example, years ago, Israel forcibly moved all Israeli citizens out of Gaza when Gaza elected Hamas to govern it. What we see today is Hamas used this time to siphon all the aid sent by the UN and EU that was used to make Gaza a model for a future two-state solution to prepare for the attacks of 7 Oct.

So I believe Israeli Jews have the strongest claim to the land. However, the Palestinians have claimes that are several hundred years less strong, and this counts for something. How do you get the Palestinians and Israelis to share governance and live in peace either in a single Israeli governed state, or a two state peaceful coexistance when there is a Palestinian Authority and Hamas that wants it all even if this means removing all Jews from the land?

Mostly accurate to my understanding, and beliefs. I must commend you sir for the courage to go where I was afraid to due to forum restrictions... again thanks for a Mostly (near 100%) accurate assessment.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[popper]

DaBull - about 4K yrs ago, Jews (as we call them) populated the Levant. Many spent some time in Egypt, then went back home. They eventually replace the south Mesopotamia peoples in the basic desert areas - but didn't really have a national name. Philistines (what we call them) were almost chased out by the Romans. That is why they got the name, Roman rulers conquered Greece/island people (as we'll call them) - a reminder that Rome could do the same to Israeli peoples.
Jews around the world began to buy land from the locals, eventually leading to the 47-48 decision ( and Britain was NOT in favor of the deal). Brit. was very much in charge of the land from WWII, didn't really want to 'loose' the colonials.

 

[General Zod]

Jews around the world began to buy land from the locals

And here's the part that makes all that "stolen land" jabber even more bullshit. The land was purchased - how polite is it to buy back your homeland from the people whose ancestors started occupying it?

 

[@TX_1]

When the Ukraine thread became too contentious and unwieldy, it was split in two. One new thread was dedicated to the politics, motivations, history, etc. behind the war. The other thread was devoted to hard news, i.e. where are the fighters and what are they doing? While some politics seeps into the news thread and vice-versa, the split has generally worked well.

The "Israel Attacked" thread has become just as contentious and unwieldy. I'm trying the same solution.

In this thread, feel free to talk about the politics of the situation and the history that led up to it.

I realize that in the Middle East, politics and religion are often the same thing. There is a rule against discussing religion on this forum and people should adhere to it. However, some small allowance will be made for acknowledgement of religious realities giving rise to political situations. This is not the place to assert you know what it says in the Talmud or the Quran and to point to that to make a point. Instead, a general acknowledgement that there are groups of people who hate each other and have occasionally done really despicable things to each other is enough. For the purposes of this thread, everyone will acknowledge that. Individual situations may be rooted in religion or may not but this is not the venue to tease out all the subtleties of the situation. None of us are scholars qualified to do that. Personally, I doubt such scholars exist; the situation is too complex for anyone to fully understand all the nuances.

And if those people do exist, they're too smart to waste time on TGT.

So let's talk real politics here and maybe even the attempts of folks like the MSM to cover up political reality. Say how you think things are and be respectful of the folks who will disagree with you.

I have a number of old, informed, honest people in the Middle East. It is complex, but the good guys there know full well who the bad guys are. I've pursued this on Twitter for a long time, 14 years. (starting with the #IranElection phase in 2009.)

The last thing I followed was the N. Syrian Kurds and their battle to survive and with out help to put ISIS down. About the time of the first Battle of Kobane I became friends with the most largely followed Kurd social media person. I worked hard to help them understand us and for my friends here to understand them. It turned into a great alliance. When we started to pull down she went silent. Only recently I found she had been killed in a Turkish drone attack. Am very sad, like loosing a little sister that I never had. Also a great teacher of reality there.

 

[DaBull]

Mostly accurate to my understanding, and beliefs. I must commend you sir for the courage to go where I was afraid to due to forum restrictions... again thanks for a Mostly (near 100%) accurate assessment.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

I watched a lot of debates between Rudy Rochman and Palestinians and their apologists. Very informative.

 

[Johnny Diamond]

I watched a lot of debates between Rudy Rochman and Palestinians and their apologists. Very informative.

Been a student of history...ancient to present day (yes that's a long time) since childhood, it has been an area of contention and bloodshed for millenia for many reasons most of which are not suitable for discussion in this format. But yes very complex and difficult topic. @General Zod just mentioned another. Hat tip Z
Johnny

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[Richardito]

I like it.

House Republicans rolled out the 13-page bill Monday, which would completely offset the foreign aid by rescinding the $14.3 billion in funds from the Inflation Reduction Act passed last year. Specifically, the bill targets some of the $80 billion the package allocated toward the Internal Revenue Service for audits on wealthy individuals.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/wh...setting-unprecedented-bar-new-bill-aid-israel

So, it is obvious that the Republicans are trying to protect the wealthy people. That has always been the case, sadly...

 

[glenbo]

Can't wait for other to weigh in on that last post. I won't do it for fear of getting the ban hammer.

 

[Eastexasrick]

Hard pass

 

[cycleguy2300]

So, it is obvious that the Republicans are trying to protect the wealthy people. That has always been the case, sadly...

Can you explain and expand on that for me so I can understand?

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[V-Tach]

He must not be aware that the IRS definition of "wealthy individuals" is anyone with a job that actually pays taxes...

 

[Johnny Diamond]

Just before Trump came into office I seem to recall congress defined home owners as wealthy. Now it's anyone who pays taxes, I'm a home owner and my social security is taxed ?

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[General Zod]

Well, someone misread the room...

 

[General Zod]

Back on topic (rather than throwing out liberal talking points then running away...)

I've been giving things a lot of thought over the past month and a half. Longer, really, but really in sharp focus lately. There is Hamas GoPro and phone footage of them gleefully raping and murdering Israeli women. There are the reports of the brutality with which they murdered people in the kibbutzim and along the roads. There's the footage of Shani Louk being paraded around unconscious or dead in that truck bed, and multiple images of female hostages bleeding heavily from between their legs. I read an Arab-Israeli paramedic's account yesterday of finding a family of four, all bound hand and foot and arranged facing each other, and all shot in the back of the head. There are accounts of a baby having been placed in an oven and cooked to death. And of course the beheaded children and people's murders being recorded on their own phones and sent via their social media accounts to their families.

Look, if even 1/3 of the above is true and accurate, then I have absolutely no sympathy of the "innocent" Palestinian people...because where does Hamas recruit these savages from? What society has so many young men who think murder, rape and torture are the way to get things done? Multiple fucking generations of BTK/Henry Lee Lucas class killers. Hamas is a cancer on the world, but it's fed by the Palestinians in Gaza. The ones who support Hamas, who when finally able to hold elections elected Hamas officials as their "government" to better facilitate Hamas taking as much foreign aid as they can to buy weapons and equipment...

Yeah. I'm sorry. It's not racist to look at the group who's the root of a problem and be okay with them reaping the consequences of what they've sown. Or what they've allowed to fester among their neighbors. I understand there have actually been some anti-Hamas demonstrations in Gaza (supposedly). Maybe they should've done that before Hamas poked the bear one time too many.

Maybe the survivors will learn. But their history makes me doubt it.

 

[Steve In Texas]

So, it is obvious that the Republicans are trying to protect the wealthy people. That has always been the case, sadly...

A balanced budget reduces inflation. Inflation is a tax on wage earners more than a tax on asset holders. Supporting Israel by balancing a budget through cuts elsewhere is more prudent than just tossing money.

 

[MountainGirl]

I have a number of old, informed, honest people in the Middle East. It is complex, but the good guys there know full well who the bad guys are. I've pursued this on Twitter for a long time, 14 years. (starting with the #IranElection phase in 2009.)

The last thing I followed was the N. Syrian Kurds and their battle to survive and with out help to put ISIS down. About the time of the first Battle of Kobane I became friends with the most largely followed Kurd social media person. I worked hard to help them understand us and for my friends here to understand them. It turned into a great alliance. When we started to pull down she went silent. Only recently I found she had been killed in a Turkish drone attack. Am very sad, like loosing a little sister that I never had. Also a great teacher of reality there.

Sorry for the loss of your friend, and belated welcome to the forum. It's nice to have folks here with first-hand connections...rather than just having read about it.

 

[MountainGirl]

I've been doing some research in order to figure out what I should actually think about Israel vs Hamas. I learned there is so much ideology and misinformation on both sides that the only way to determine what is true and how to proceed requires a better understanding of history (politics) first. Here are some interesting things I learned so far:

About 2000 yrs ago, the first people to settle the area now referred to as either Israel and the territories or Palestine--depending on which side you are on--spoke Hebrew and practiced Judaism, They called this land Judea. The Romans then conquered and colonized Judea, persecuting the Jews and, as an insult to them, renamed the land Palestine in honor of Judea's main enemy--the Philistines from Greece (they were like the Vikings of the Med--raiding and pillaging cities from the sea). Recall the Romans are the ones who crucified Jesus during this time of occupation. The Ottomans (modern day Turkey) later conquered the Romans and occupied this area, then the British once it and its allies defeated Turkey and its allies in WWII. During the time of occupation, the Jews were persecuted and many left hoping to one day return when the occupations were over. Some stayed and continued to be persecuted. Others converted to Islam (about 1500 years ago when Islam was founded) and stayed. After WWII (in 1948), the Brits created Israel from the remaining lands that it had under its control, and put us on the collision course we see today, as millions of Jews returned to their "homeland" and the Palestinians who were hoping to now govern the land themselvles now that they were free of Britain saw themselves as having to fight another occupier--Israeli Jews.

Despite having to respond to the attacks of its Arab and Palestinian neighbors, Israel's desire is to govern the area in a way that does not discriminate or persecute any people or religion. For example, there are Palestinians (non-Jewish Israeli citizens) who are elected members of Israels parliament. However, its official position is it supports a two state solution, where there are some lands to be goverened by a Palestinian government and some lands to be goverened by a Jewish government. Any solutions proposed so far have been shot down by the Palestinian Authority/Hamas. For example, years ago, Israel forcibly moved all Israeli citizens out of Gaza when Gaza elected Hamas to govern it. What we see today is Hamas used this time to siphon all the aid sent by the UN and EU that was used to make Gaza a model for a future two-state solution to prepare for the attacks of 7 Oct.

So I believe Israeli Jews have the strongest claim to the land. However, the Palestinians have claimes that are several hundred years less strong, and this counts for something. How do you get the Palestinians and Israelis to share governance and live in peace either in a single Israeli governed state, or a two state peaceful coexistance when there is a Palestinian Authority and Hamas that wants it all even if this means removing all Jews from the land?

Thanks, Bull, for the work you put in on that.
The more puzzle pieces we have, the clearer the picture becomes.

 

[leVieux]

A balanced budget reduces inflation. Inflation is a tax on wage earners more than a tax on asset holders. Supporting Israel by balancing a budget through cuts elsewhere is more prudent than just tossing money.

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’’Wealthy‘’ people generally own businesses, which provide most of the real jobs in our Nation.

Democrats falsely divide us into ‘’working’’ class people and others.

But we know that in almost all businesses, especially SMALL businesses, the owners are the hardest working. The great percentage of all American business is SMALL business.’

Small businesses grant the most opportunity to everyone to achieve the ‘’American
Dream’’, democrats or not.

This is all falsification, trying to incite class envy and falsely-based hatreds.

Please do not let the enemies of our Constitution choose our words for us !

leVieux

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