Hurley's Gold

Ukraine War and Politics

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  • Johnny Diamond

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    I'm curious to see in a parallel universe what things would look like if we didn't make this treaty and Ukraine nuked Russia. Not say one is right or wrong. I just like considering interesting scenarios.

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    Doesn't matter we did, I can no longer see financially supporting another nation while we allow our own to languish in destruction. However we gave our word.
    And need to get our own house in order simultaneously!!!
    Johnny

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    BigRed

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    As I have said before, if a neighbor down the street has their house broken into by some men with guns and I can hear the family screaming as they are being assaulted, begging for help and the husband is at my door asking for a gun and some ammo I will take the things that my family's money purchased and hand over absolutely as much as I can to him as well as go myself to fucking destroy those that violated the sovereignty of that family's house. It wouldn't matter that those either those burglarizing or the family were "good church folk" or some gangsters, the house is theirs and no one has the right to enter it uninvited without just cause.

    Would you plunder another neighbor's property and hand that neighbor's gun and ammo over to the neighbor being attacked?
     

    Dakar34

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    "U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University."

     

    studenygreg

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    Doesn't matter we did, I can no longer see financially supporting another nation while we allow our own to languish in destruction. However we gave our word.
    And need to get our own house in order simultaneously!!!
    Johnny

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    Well let's win this thing and end it instead of pussyfooting around

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    Dakar34

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    I'm pretty sure we signed at least one treaty with Ukraine saying we'd help defend them if they gave up their nukes.

    And it's in our best interest to defend Ukraine. Russia doesn't want NATO states on its borders.

    You know who's right next to Ukraine? Poland, Romania, Slovakia, and Hungary. All NATO states. I'm sure Russia would be very happy with them on its borders
    There isn't and never was such a treaty. Furthermore, Ukraine never had operational control; the weapons were based there when the USSR was dying, and the concern by the west then was not to increase the number of nuclear powers in the world. We wanted them moved back to Russia.
    We also explicitly promised we would not expand NATO east ("not one inch" - US SecState), but in the 90's and early 2000's Russia was in such turmoil we felt we could do whatever we wanted. And we did, over the strong objections of many famous cold warriors.
     

    zackmars

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    There isn't and never was such a treaty. Furthermore, Ukraine never had operational control; the weapons were based there when the USSR was dying, and the concern by the west then was not to increase the number of nuclear powers in the world.
    We also explicitly promised we would not expand NATO east ("not one inch" - US SecState), but in the 90's and early 2000's Russia was in such turmoil we felt we could do whatever we wanted. And we did, over the strong objections of many famous cold warriors.

    Please look up the Budapest Memorandum. We might not have signed a defense agreement with Ukraine, Russia said they wouldn't attack. Here we are, AGAIN.

    If Russia doesn't want NATO expansion, they shouldn't have spent 80 years invading, robbing, killing, and invading it's neighbors.

    I'm sure your link written by a person who studied in the USSR in the late 80's totally has no bias.
     

    Dakar34

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    Please look up the Budapest Memorandum. We might not have signed a defense agreement with Ukraine, Russia said they wouldn't attack. Here we are, AGAIN.

    If Russia doesn't want NATO expansion, they shouldn't have spent 80 years invading, robbing, killing, and invading it's neighbors.

    I'm sure your link written by a person who studied in the USSR in the late 80's totally has no bias.
    Note that the US has argued the BM is not binding. https://web.archive.org/web/20140419030507/http://minsk.usembassy.gov/budapest_memorandum.html
     

    zackmars

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    Cool. We should just let Russia invade whoever it wants.

    Let them have Ukraine. Who's next? Poland? Hungary? Slovakia? Romania? I'm sure Russia will be very happy with 4 NATO members on it's borders instead of maybe 1.

    A memorandum not being binding doesn’t make a sovereign nation fair game.


    And thats also not much of an argument. They quite literally say "it's not binding but we take it seriously"
     

    Dakar34

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    Cool. We should just let Russia invade whoever it wants.

    Let them have Ukraine. Who's next? Poland? Hungary? Slovakia? Romania? I'm sure Russia will be very happy with 4 NATO members on it's borders instead of maybe 1.

    A memorandum not being binding doesn’t make a sovereign nation fair game.


    And thats also not much of an argument. They quite literally say "it's not binding but we take it seriously"
    It has been my often stated position that George Kennan etc were right when they strongly advised Pres Clinton that expanding to the east would ultimately lead to hostilities. It took almost 30 years but here we are. Ignorance? Intent? I don't know but here we are.
     

    Havok1

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    Cool. We should just let Russia invade whoever it wants.

    Let them have Ukraine. Who's next? Poland? Hungary? Slovakia? Romania? I'm sure Russia will be very happy with 4 NATO members on it's borders instead of maybe 1.

    A memorandum not being binding doesn’t make a sovereign nation fair game.


    And thats also not much of an argument. They quite literally say "it's not binding but we take it seriously"

    Good lord. Russia currently borders 4 nato countries. :facepalm:
     

    cycleguy2300

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    Would you plunder another neighbor's property and hand that neighbor's gun and ammo over to the neighbor being attacked?
    We've been over this...

    Once you choose to pay taxes and they are sent to the government it isnt your money any longer and I am free to petition the government and make the case for the USA spending IT'S money on Ukraine.

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    CavCop

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    After Russia destroyed several U.S. M1 Abraham main battle tanks in Ukraine, they now have a trophy one to exploit and build better RPG’s that will destroy the vulnerable areas of the tank’s armor. The Russians have gotten some good NATO trophies they will probably share with China. Nothing better than getting your hands on the technology being use by the other side, to exploit it and share it. Nothing like $1,000 rocket propelled grenade, destroying a $10 million dollar Tank… more so when numerous M1’s have been destroyed on the front lines.

     

    cycleguy2300

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    "U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University."


    Funny... Gorbachev himself denied this.



    The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”

    Gorbachev continued that “The agreement on a final settlement with Germany said that no new military structures would be created in the eastern part of the country; no additional troops would be deployed; no weapons of mass destruction would be placed there. It has been obeyed all these years.” To be sure, the former Soviet president criticized NATO enlargement and called it a violation of the spirit of the assurances given Moscow in 1990, but he made clear there was no promise regarding broader enlargement.

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    Havok1

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    We've been over this...

    Once you choose to pay taxes and they are sent to the government it isnt your money any longer and I am free to petition the government and make the case for the USA spending IT'S money on Ukraine.

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    No,it’s still our money. It’s not Ukraines money. For all your talk about helping your neighbor, you sure seem to only care about neighbors that are in Ukraine. I wonder what motivation you may have for that.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    After Russia destroyed several U.S. M1 Abraham main battle tanks in Ukraine, they now have a trophy one to exploit and build better RPG’s that will destroy the vulnerable areas of the tank’s armor. The Russians have gotten some good NATO trophies they will probably share with China. Nothing better than getting your hands on the technology being use by the other side, to exploit it and share it. Nothing like $1,000 rocket propelled grenade, destroying a $10 million dollar Tank… more so when numerous M1’s have been destroyed on the front lines.

    The tech for destroying MBT's isn't a secret and neither was the armor on the Abrams.

    russia already *could* have fielded RPGs with modern tech, but by and large haven't probably because it doesn't fit their tactics and isnt within their ability to manufacture with reliability and quantity.

    Things get captured and destroyed in war...

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    Dakar34

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    Funny... Gorbachev himself denied this.





    Sent from your mom's house
    "As late as March 1991, according to the diary of the British ambassador to Moscow, British Prime Minister John Major personally assured Gorbachev, “We are not talking about the strengthening of NATO.” Subsequently, when Soviet defense minister Marshal Dmitri Yazov asked Major about East European leaders’ interest in NATO membership, the British leader responded, “Nothing of the sort will happen.” (See Document 28)

    When Russian Supreme Soviet deputies came to Brussels to see NATO and meet with NATO secretary-general Manfred Woerner in July 1991, Woerner told the Russians that “We should not allow […] the isolation of the USSR from the European community.” According to the Russian memorandum of conversation, “Woerner stressed that the NATO Council and he are against the expansion of NATO (13 of 16 NATO members support this point of view).” (See Document 30)"
     

    Dakar34

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    The tech for destroying MBT's isn't a secret and neither was the armor on the Abrams.

    russia already *could* have fielded RPGs with modern tech, but by and large haven't probably because it doesn't fit their tactics and isnt within their ability to manufacture with reliability and quantity.

    Things get captured and destroyed in war...

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    Abrams won’t likely get destroyed anymore. Ukraine has pulled them back to safety.
     
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