9mm Carbine Rifle thoughts...

[TheDan]

That's cool, haven't seen those before...

Question I would have is related to impact on carry/reaction-time considerations...

My current understanding of this (and I could be wrong or have missed something), is that by converting to an SBR, you lose:

1. The ability to carry 'concealed' (though that in itself is a 'loaded' term), as I don't believe that rifles/sbr's are covered under most (if any) state ccw laws...

2. Ability to carry while in-vehicle in Condition 1. I'm a little bit fuzzier on this one since it's been a long time since looking into, but if I recall correctly, this restriction (which may not exist in all States) was tied more to anti-poaching/game laws than ccw or the like...This is something I'll need to do more research on when time permits...

That's easy; just don't leave Texas
You'd also be fine going to any state that is worth going to.

The engraving isn't on the polymer. It's on that trigger group/frame thingie that fits in the middle of the "chassis". The chassis is non-serialized.

Of course, that makes the problem worse. How do you engrave on the thing that is legally the firearm, i.e. this:

View attachment 152096 ?

Picture credit: cbhausen via ingunowners.com

On some polymer pistols the serial is on a metal tag embedded in the frame like in the picture below. I'm guessing you could make your own tag with the NFA info, but that isn't an option on the 320 since the trigger pack is the "frame" like you point out.

 

[Younggun]

I believe the engraving has to be done in an area that can be seen without disassembly.


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[TheDan]

I believe the engraving has to be done in an area that can be seen without disassembly.

Yep that too.

 

[grumper]

Yep that too.

Have a shop with a laser engraver pick a flat spot on the trigger pack and get it done, simple.

If the firearm is really the trigger pack it should be no different than engraving a HK, AR-15, or FNC conversion sear. The markings on those are never visible without disassembling the whole weapon, but they are in plain sight on the device itself.

If you're feeling paranoid engrave both the trigger pack and the USW frame in the minimal sized font. Lots of MG conversions did this back in the day.

 

[TheDan]

If the firearm is really the trigger pack it should be no different than engraving a HK, AR-15, or FNC conversion sear. The markings on those are never visible without disassembling the whole weapon, but they are in plain sight on the device itself.

niiiiiiiice... interest definitely piqued

 

[Younggun]

Have a shop with a laser engraver pick a flat spot on the trigger pack and get it done, simple.

If the firearm is really the trigger pack it should be no different than engraving a HK, AR-15, or FNC conversion sear. The markings on those are never visible without disassembling the whole weapon, but they are in plain sight on the device itself.

If you're feeling paranoid engrave both the trigger pack and the USW frame in the minimal sized font. Lots of MG conversions did this back in the day.

Appreciate the insight.


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[grumper]

niiiiiiiice... interest definitely piqued

The FNC sear looks like this when installed:

You can see the number on the side of the sear but the lower has to be taken off first.

You have to look inside the big hole at the front to see this HK sear (it's the vertical silvery piece):

 

[Reelthrill]

Well this thread went interesting. It is clear as mud now. IN all seriousness, thanks to all for participating and keeping it alive and evolving the conversation to something that appears to be of interest to many.

I get my commission check next Wed. and will make my decision...and of course post pics to prove it does happen.

 

[Hill Billy]

How about the PS90?

 

[diesel1959]

How about the PS90?

NOT 9mm, or even close to 9mm. Just saying.

 

[Hill Billy]

OMG! A barrel shroud. Here comes feinstien, lol

 

[Hill Billy]

Don't forget the Scorpion. Folding stock, and it's a pretty neat little rifle.

 

[CyberWolf]

Well this thread went interesting. It is clear as mud now. IN all seriousness, thanks to all for participating and keeping it alive and evolving the conversation to something that appears to be of interest to many.

I get my commission check next Wed. and will make my decision...and of course post pics to prove it does happen.

Ok then, back on topic...

I have it narrowed down in my mind to a Beretta Cx4 Storm, Sig MPX, or CZ Scorpion EVO 3.

....

Countless reviews abound, a lot of information out there in research is causing information overload. Lots of manufacturer fanboys out there seem to skew thoughts.

Instead of asking which one would you pick, I want to ask the question a different way.

Which would you eliminate off the choices and why are you eliminating that firearm(s)?

Can't speak to the Storm, and have only a little time behind an EVO so not much opinion yet, but I would definately recommend against buying a Sig MPX...

Damn things will start consuming all your ammo and leadiing down multiple rabbit-holes. Here's some (sorta recent) pics to demonstrate how badly the MPX sucks:


Look at how puny that thing looks. Ridiculous! It can't even take itself seriously!

Even with a can, just weak...

Maybe if I just swapped rhe Forend it wouldn't seem so pathetic..

Nah, still pretty weak...I know! Maybe a new Barrel will help!

(2.5 minutes later....) Dammit! Too short!

Knew that extra handgard would come in handy!

I especially hate this damn thing because being a pistol, it recognizes it's status as a Protected Class under my CCW laws and is always clamoring to come along for the ride. But what really grinds my gears is how disrespectful it's been towards my wallet ever since it started wearing a Franklin Trigger...Geeze! Fortunately, the loud squawking can be supressed.

Only thing not shown in pics is MOE K2 grip it's currently wearing, and eventually something else that recently started patiently waiting it's turn...


So, yeah, best advice would be to just avoid those altogether, nuthin but crap.

ETA: On second thought, after all this, I think I just need to sell mine...

 

[91B10]

I have only had issues with jamming when i use steel case ammo, and i have only used brown bear as far as that goes. It gives me no trouble with brass cases. The Meg-car 32 round mag i have simply does not function in the weapon, im not sure whats wrong with it, it will not feed, every round jams no mater what the case is made of. Sorry for delay in responding.

 

[TheDan]

Ok then, back on topic...




Can't speak to the Storm, and have only a little time behind an EVO so not much opinion yet, but I would definately recommend against buying a Sig MPX...

Damn things will start consuming all your ammo and leadiing down multiple rabbit-holes. Here's some (sorta recent) pics to demonstrate how badly the MPX sucks:


Look at how puny that thing looks. Ridiculous! It can't even take itself seriously!

View attachment 152203


Even with a can, just weak...
View attachment 152204


Maybe if I just swapped rhe Forend it wouldn't seem so pathetic..

View attachment 152205

View attachment 152206


Nah, still pretty weak...I know! Maybe a new Barrel will help!
View attachment 152207


(2.5 minutes later....) Dammit! Too short!
View attachment 152208

Knew that extra handgard would come in handy!

View attachment 152209

View attachment 152210


I especially hate this damn thing because being a pistol, it recognizes it's status as a Protected Class under my CCW laws and is always clamoring to come along for the ride. But what really grinds my gears is how disrespectful it's been towards my wallet ever since it started wearing a Franklin Trigger...Geeze! Fortunately, the loud squawking can be supressed.

Only thing not shown in pics is MOE K2 grip it's currently wearing, and eventually something else that recently started patiently waiting it's turn...


So, yeah, best advice would be to just avoid those altogether, nuthin but crap.

ETA: On second thought, after all this, I think I just need to sell mine...

Did you really put a 2" barrel on it?

Well I ordered the macaroni... now all I need is a Glock to put in it

 

[innominate]

For the ones talking about having one of these pistols with the arm brace with them as carry or in their vehicle. What happens in the unlikely situation where you actually have to use it? Someone gets a video of the hero shouldering his arm brace pistol to save the day. Wouldn't that person be screwed by the feds? Or is my understanding of the use of an arm brace incorrect?

 

[lightflyer1]

The answer is here:

https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

If you are caught with it up to your shoulder you are in for some trouble. You aren't going to have time more than likely to use it as a "brace" as defined by the ATF (strapped securely to your forearm). So now it seems it is just extra weight and in the way as a carry weapon. I couldn't even imagine trying to carry something like this as a civilian. It is huge when compared to any normal handgun and offers little if any benefit and a lot of drawbacks. I can't even imagine trying to defend its use in court after the shooting. Kept in a vehicle it may have more use.

 

[Darqhelmet]

The answer is here:

https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

If you are caught with it up to your shoulder you are in for some trouble. You aren't going to have time more than likely to use it as a "brace" as defined by the ATF (strapped securely to your forearm). So now it seems it is just extra weight and in the way as a carry weapon. I couldn't even imagine trying to carry something like this as a civilian. It is huge when compared to any normal handgun and offers little if any benefit and a lot of drawbacks. I can't even imagine trying to defend its use in court after the shooting. Kept in a vehicle it may have more use.

That was clarified and is currently not correct. Here is the correct and current letter. (Granted the ATF making laws on the whim of some jackass bureaucrat shouldn’t be leagal)

https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/atf-letter-march-21-2017.pdf

 

[diesel1959]

That was clarified and is currently not correct. Here is the correct and current letter. (Granted the ATF making laws on the whim of some jackass bureaucrat shouldn’t be leagal)

https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/atf-letter-march-21-2017.pdf

Yep. It is currently the understanding that one does NOT redesign the brace merely by placing the device up to your shoulder incidentally or at times. One should NEVER refer to a brace as a "stock" in speaking or in writing. Seeing one placed against your shoulder in a video is NOT taken as proof of the user having "redesigned" the brace as a stock.

This is an example of the ATF executing on laws and not creating laws. ATF regs are promulgated to executed the pertinent sections of the US Code. Code is law. Regs and the CFR are NOT. Regs change at times depending upon how various executives have the agency understand the code sections. When there is conflict, such conflict generally gets resolved through lawsuits. Pretty topical, considering that DJT is contemplating executing on the 14A in a way different than what has been done before, but in a way he and his legal folks read as being within the meaning of the field left open after Wong Kim Ark.

 

[grumper]

Bleah. I'm of the opinion if you want to shoulder the damn thing pay the proper tax and build it as a SBR.

The only way short rifles or shotguns will ever get off the NFA list is if they can be shown to be in common usage & no more dangerous their long barreled cousins.

Plus ATF rulings can and do change on a whim and the ruling letters only apply to the individual that requested the clarification.