Houston police: 4 officers wounded, 2 of 3 suspects dead

[sharkey]

Problem with no-knocks is they are set up by those with 'storm the Bastille' attitudes. Any resistance will be severely dealt with. Often forces a undesired response. Yes, I had one in my neighborhood, done early morn. when the kids were walking to the bus stops. Flash bang and DPD, locals just did traffic control. Plan is sneak up during the dark when you have the element of surprise? The time when a response is MOST likely!!.

Surprise, speed, and violence of action (within the use of force laws). To be fair, I dunno what the Bastille is. Does it get an undesired response sometime? Well yeah, we can't pre-determine human behavior. It sure works most of the time. The chiefs that forbid this are erring on the side non confrontation. I get it but I just don't agree with it.
I mean of we are so concerned with dopers safety, the easy answer is don't be a dopers or legalize all drug usage and sales. The police do not currently have that option.
Whatever happened to responsibility? IF officers shot their partners, they are responsible. If Tuttle confronted entry officers with a gun, he is responsible for the couple's death. It seems simple for me to understand.

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[AustinN4]

I am not a doper. At all, Not even MJ. If my door was mistakenly breached without warning (no knock) when I was home I would likely greet them with a firearm in my hand and probably be killed.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

It would suck to just "roll over" when home invaders bust into ones house in the middle of the night claiming to be police....


ETA: Ninja'd by A4.

 

[OFFascist]

Was PC obtained? #3 seems in conflict with you'll. Was it a heavily armed entry team or just guys with gun in "plain clothes"?
Other than using a CI to make a controlled buy, what would be your suggestion to obtain PC to obtain a warrant?
Again, the couple did not die because they used weed and Coke but rather because they challenged the entry team. Now I don't advocate shooting your fellow officers but IF that did happen, how does that relate to the couple challenging the officers?

How about not raiding a home in this manner over mere drugs. Dynamic entries should be reserved for life and death situations. IMO persevering the sanctity of a person home should be valued much more than getting a bit of drugs off the streets.

 

[sharkey]

How about not raiding a home in this manner over mere drugs. Dynamic entries should be reserved for life and death situations. IMO persevering the sanctity of a person home should be valued much more than getting a bit of drugs off the streets.

Well that definitely is an option but not one many departments are using. On one side the public demands an end to the opiod epidemic that has killed countless kids and on the same side they say end it just don't serve the warrant to obtain said drugs. It os hard to do it both ways.

I would say the sanctity of a person's self and home is protected in the 4th Amendment which these officers did not violate.

You bolded my response to the CI making a controlled buy but I dont see how that relates to your post of not running any no knock warrants. So what should they have done? Set up a perimeter and gotten on a bull horn to tell the people inside to come out? How long should they wait?

Again I go back to what should HPD do when a supposed law abiding citizen complains of drugs being sold in a neighboring house? What about the hundreds of warrant services that went off without an issue? Should we just tell police to be reactive only to lessen the risk of confrontation? We have to find a balance and I think we found one that works pretty well. There os just gonna be criminals that end up dying because of non compliance. Heck, I contend that more people really should be shot by the police than statistics show.

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[perfor8]

If Tuttle confronted entry officers with a gun, he is responsible for the couple's death.

Lethal force to prevent arrest can be justified.
http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm

 

[AustinN4]

Lethal force to prevent arrest can be justified. http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm

That only works for you if you are still alive!

 

[ZX9RCAM]

So, were the officers wearing cameras or not?
If not, why not?

 

[perfor8]

That only works for you if you are still alive!

If it "works" you are still alive.

 

[AustinN4]

If it "works" you are still alive.

Cart before the horse

 

[pronstar]

Was PC obtained? #3 seems in conflict with you'll. Was it a heavily armed entry team or just guys with gun in "plain clothes"?
Other than using a CI to make a controlled buy, what would be your suggestion to obtain PC to obtain a warrant?
Again, the couple did not die because they used weed and Coke but rather because they challenged the entry team. Now I don't advocate shooting your fellow officers but IF that did happen, how does that relate to the couple challenging the officers?



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On a no-knock warrant, the homeowners are shooting at armed intruders coming into their home.

I know how I’m going to react when armed intruders are breaking into my home. It may not end pretty for me, but I won’t be in a position to ask”are you cops or burglars?”

Especially since I have no criminal history and am not involved in the criminal underworld, and there’s no expectation that armed government agents have any beef with me whatsoever.


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[pronstar]

So let me get this straight:
Red flag laws to take guns based on opinion of family or friends - bad

Relying on a drug addict informant to initiate a no-knock warrant against someone with no criminal history (and no drugs unearthed in the aftermath) - perfectly fine

Theres about a million things the cops can do to investigate crime - based on an informant’s word - before it escalates into serving a heavily armed no-knock warrant.


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[perfor8]

Cart before the horse

Not for me or you. We're still breathing.

 

[perfor8]

Which raises the question, for whom is it too late? The warrant servee? In which case I don't think he's reading this thread anyway. It's relevant - and not too late - for anyone reading the thread, which is why I put it here.

 

[RoadRunner]

Heck, I contend that more people really should be shot by the police than statistics show.

That statement says a lot about you.

 

[toddnjoyce]

That statement says a lot about you.

Not really.

If you understand use of force policies, it is quite remarkable how few citizens are actually engaged by LEO.

 

[RoadRunner]

Not really.

If you understand use of force policies, it is quite remarkable how few citizens are actually engaged by LEO.

So you too think that more people should be shot by the police?

 

[V-Tach]

In general, police show greater restraint than the public realizes......

 

[perfor8]

I contend more people should be shot by their victims.

 

[toddnjoyce]

So you too think that more people should be shot by the police?

Yes.

Drunk drivers that kill other motorists should be shot on sight.

Commit crimes against a child? Shoot on sight.

Wife beater? Shoot on sight.

I firmly believe we’d have fewer crimes if we broadened and sped up the capital punishment process.