Sapience. Any animals you think could be evolving to basic human like sapience?

[Axxe55]

Pick 3 domesticated animals.

Those would be the easiest to see since we intervened to speed up the process and produce optimal traits for our purposes.

Smaller scale examples would be drug resistant bacteria such as staph.


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And what purpose do we need a drug resistant bacteria like staph for?

 

[General Zod]

And what purpose do we need a drug resistant bacteria like staph for?

We don't need them. We've wound up with them because they've adapted and evolved to resist the drugs we developed to kill them.

 

[Younggun]

And what purpose do we need a drug resistant bacteria like staph for?

Sorry I wasn’t more clear. I meant that as an example of natural micro evolution as a benefit to survival, unlike domesticated animals whose micro evolution we engineered through selective breeding for our benefit.

Another example via natural process would be DEET resistant mosquitos. As a species, mosquitos have evolved to be resistant to an environmental change that negatively impacted them (in certain areas). Still the same species, but poses certain beneficiary traits (to them, not us).


Interestingly, their are groups of humans who have some resistance to HIV/AIDS due to ancestors surviving the Black Plague. There is a certain spike protein used by the plague to infect the cell and in a small percentage of humans this protein was inaccessible to the virus. When they survived and reproduced their offspring possessed the same trait. For some time their was a very high percentage of humans in certain area of Europe that possessed this trait although due to movement and the intermixing of different people it’s no longer so common. But that is the same protein used by the HIV virus to infect a cell. So those who have retained the trait have a low likelyhood of becoming infected if exposed to HIV/AIDS. The survival and spread of that recessive trait would be another example of micro evolution. But since it became less necessary for survival it didn’t become dominant among all humans.


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[A1Oni]

dolphins, whales, primates, and some species of birds are arguably sentient to some degree

 

[benenglish]

And what purpose do we need a drug resistant bacteria like staph for?

I still remember the "Type G" staph infection my sister had after her first heart surgery. I have no idea what "Type G" means but the doctors who identified it said they'd never seen it in real life before, they'd just read about it in books.

It's weird to watch your sister's sternum spewing a constant thick stream of something that resembles whipped lime sherbert. Oddest thing about that infectious discharge? Absolutely no smell.

They had to cut her open again and scrape her sternum to get rid of the stuff.

Whew. Even for TGT, that's taking a thread WAY off topic.

 

[Axxe55]

I still remember the "Type G" staph infection my sister had after her first heart surgery. I have no idea what "Type G" means but the doctors who identified it said they'd never seen it in real life before, they'd just read about it in books.

It's weird to watch your sister's sternum spewing a constant thick stream of something that resembles whipped lime sherbert. Oddest thing about that infectious discharge? Absolutely no smell.

They had to cut her open again and scrape her sternum to get rid of the stuff.

Whew. Even for TGT, that's taking a thread WAY off topic.

I got a staph infection from a cut when I was teenager. Spent a week in the hospital with IV's in both arms. Not a fun way to start the summer vacation.

 

[avvidclif]

I watched an episode of meateater where some south American tribesman killed and ate a monkey. The host admitted he was sick to his stomach thinking about the fact that monkeys were so intelligent, and close to humans as far as development. He ate it , afraid to offend the men.

It really struck me because I had never thought about that scenario.

I love dogs. They provide a great friendship..... But when I was in Korea I did partake.



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How about kimchi???

 

[General Zod]

How about kimchi???

If the kimchi is sapient, you need to never go to that restaurant again.

 

[glenbo]

Pigs.

I beg your pardon.

 

[DoubleDuty]

Thanks, YG, for the reminder about the rules.

I don't really know what to think about the subject. I do, however, think I can sorta predict the future.

We're told that, best as scientists can tell, lots of animals possess sufficient intelligence to be functionally equivalent to a 2-year-old human being. We also know that dogs are the animals that both have vocal chords that are sorta close to human and also have ubiquitous close contact with humans.

There are scientists working on breeding/engineering dogs that will be able to vocalize in a way that's understandable to humans.

My prediction for the future?

When dogs have been altered to the point that when you close the door behind you to go to work you can understand your dog pleading with you from the other side of the door "Please, don't go!", a whole bunch of the ways people think about their relationship to other species will get blown apart. It will take generations, at least, for humans to make peace with those changes.

Yep when your dog starts telling you what it doesn't like your life will have changed forever

 

[TipBledsoe]

Pick 3 domesticated animals.

Those would be the easiest to see since we intervened to speed up the process and produce optimal traits for our purposes.

Smaller scale examples would be drug resistant bacteria such as staph.


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^ There it is - our differences of opinions/views are in our definition of evolution.

The definition of evolution that I subscribe to does not consider domestication of animals, or even drug resistant bacteria, to be examples of evolution.

A proper definition of evolution does not include the life stages of a butterfly changing from an egg, to a larva, to a pupa, and finally a butterfly.

A proper definition of evolution does not include a scientist engineering a dog breed that has wings and can fly.

But dogs that naturally develop the ability to speak English and carry-on an intelligent conversation, without a scientist engineering - that would be an example of evolution.

A German Sheppard is physically and mentally still a German Sheppard whether domesticated or wild - domestication and/or training is not equal to evolution. A “Tarzan” would still be just as human as yourself. A horse might be considered as domesticated, but only a well trained horse; a wild horse is no less a horse than a well trained horse.

A proper example of evolution would be a large portion of fish that naturally develop lungs and legs in order to leave the water and live on land - a fish that becomes a caveman.

Another proper example would be caveman developing into a being that can understand algebra - a caveman becomes a human.

Those examples are purely fictional theory espoused by scientists that can not be proven, yet is brainwashed into our children’s minds by educators who are supposedly smarter than I.

There are zero examples of evolution, and there never will be.

 

[Sasquatch]

You are the missing link?!

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Yup.

 

[Younggun]

I think a big factor is whether another creature can look at a rock and a stick, and make the connection that those to independent objects can be combined to create a new more useful object.

Apes are somewhat involved with tools, but not combining different objects to create a new object for their use. Other intelligent species like dolphins are a bit hampered in this respect since their flippers aren’t all that great at manipulating tools.

Speech to a degree I think matters, but also dependent on what exactly is being said. Are new ideas being formed and communicated, or just trained responses? We already have apes learning sign language. I’m not sure dogs would be able to communicate more complex ideas even if given vocal chords capable of human speech.


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[Axxe55]

I think a big factor is whether another creature can look at a rock and a stick, and make the connection that those to independent objects can be combined to create a new more useful object.

Apes are somewhat involved with tools, but not combining different objects to create a new object for their use. Other intelligent species like dolphins are a bit hampered in this respect since their flippers aren’t all that great at manipulating tools.

Speech to a degree I think matters, but also dependent on what exactly is being said. Are new ideas being formed and communicated, or just trained responses? We already have apes learning sign language. I’m not sure dogs would be able to communicate more complex ideas even if given vocal chords capable of human speech.


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Several species of birds can mimic or repeat spoken words, but I would classify that as speech, especially in the context of a conversation.

 

[TipBledsoe]

Sorry I wasn’t more clear. I meant that as an example of natural micro evolution as a benefit to survival, unlike domesticated animals whose micro evolution we engineered through selective breeding for our benefit.

Another example via natural process would be DEET resistant mosquitos. As a species, mosquitos have evolved to be resistant to an environmental change that negatively impacted them (in certain areas). Still the same species, but poses certain beneficiary traits (to them, not us).


Interestingly, their are groups of humans who have some resistance to HIV/AIDS due to ancestors surviving the Black Plague. There is a certain spike protein used by the plague to infect the cell and in a small percentage of humans this protein was inaccessible to the virus. When they survived and reproduced their offspring possessed the same trait. For some time their was a very high percentage of humans in certain area of Europe that possessed this trait although due to movement and the intermixing of different people it’s no longer so common. But that is the same protein used by the HIV virus to infect a cell. So those who have retained the trait have a low likelyhood of becoming infected if exposed to HIV/AIDS. The survival and spread of that recessive trait would be another example of micro evolution. But since it became less necessary for survival it didn’t become dominant among all humans.


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^ Caution of misinformation.

Mosquitos are not resistant to DEET in the way suggested. Only the “yellow fever species” of mosquito is “resistant” to DEET - And the term “resistant” is very loosely used. The only reason that the yellow fever mosquito is said to be resistant to DEET is only because the yellow fever mosquitos no longer sense the smell of DEET and are thereby not repelled by it - at most, this is only an example of devolution.

 

[Sasquatch]

Yep when your dog starts telling you what it doesn't like your life will have changed forever

Our rescue girl doesn't need to speak english for me to understand the "Please, don't go!" part ben eluded to. She is big time suffering separation anxiety when *I* walk out the door without her. She attached to me super hard, maybe because I was the first person she saw, or because of the affection I showed her or whatever - but she cries, loudly, when I walk out the door without her. My MIL, on the other side of the house, was complaining about it. Told her to deal with it, because the poor girl was abandoned and its understandable - her first humans just left her and moved away without her. It tears me up inside a bit every time I walk out the door on her, because I know its continuing to traumatize her and it could take a long time, if it ever does, for her to come to terms and *not* be afraid she's being left behind.

The dogs can already communicate in their own way when they like or dislike something - if its food, they eat it or not. If its a way of being touched, they either bark, growl, they show by their body language that it's not OK - or they go full tail wagging, tongue out, happy dog if they like it.

Watch they they interact and play with one another - I've watched my dogs play "gotcha" games with one another, waiting for the other dog to come around the corner when they pounce and wrestle. That's premeditation. That's forethought.

One of our smaller girl doggos tries to say "I love you" when we say it to her. Naturally her vocal cords don't make those words right, but she makes three distinct noises with tonal variation as close to the same tone and cadence as we say them to her. And she repeats the phrase, the same way, until she gets physical affections.

They show empathy and emotion. They show confusion, sadness, and dogs can be diagnosed with depression. When I put down my boy last month, the other three dogs were confused and sad. They moped. They searched for him. Took them a while to come to terms with him being gone. That tells me they had a real emotional bond. Love. Shit, they walk *around* his grave when I walk them out back, I don't have to keep them away with the leash. Its like watching a young human processing things.

Who knows how long it will be before dogs evolve more and can verbally communicate, or we have a technological breakthrough that allows us to communicate with them more effectively.

 

[justmax]

Agree about rules prohibiting religious discussion.
Totally disagree with the rest.
The OP opened the can of worms by suggesting evolution - Evolution is the opposite of creation. Evolution is the religion of non-religion.
This entire thread needs to be locked and deleted.

You may want to check a dictionary before expecting such a broad statement to go unchallenged. I have not read any post referencing religion until you just did,

In layman's terms, evolution only means change, sometimes positive, sometimes not. I personally have witnessed the evolution of many things like the automobile, computers and the phones we are using now to discuss this.

The opposite of evolution might better be stagnation or decay. The opposite of creation would be destruction. If you meant to say "creationism" then that would be a violation of said rules.

 

[Axxe55]

I have had dogs that were more intelligent that some people I have come in contact with. Walking upright on two legs and being able to speak, isn't necessarily a sign of being of higher intelligence.

 

[jordanmills]

I might not disagee with you - what are your three best examples of micro-evolution?

Dog breeds, coyotes, and wolves, horses, donkeys, and mules, and lions, ligers, tigons, and tigers. The latter two are pushing it, but I'm inclined to think they're all members of the same species or "super-species".

 

[jordanmills]

Sorry I wasn’t more clear. I meant that as an example of natural micro evolution as a benefit to survival, unlike domesticated animals whose micro evolution we engineered through selective breeding for our benefit.

Another example via natural process would be DEET resistant mosquitos. As a species, mosquitos have evolved to be resistant to an environmental change that negatively impacted them (in certain areas). Still the same species, but poses certain beneficiary traits (to them, not us).


Interestingly, their are groups of humans who have some resistance to HIV/AIDS due to ancestors surviving the Black Plague. There is a certain spike protein used by the plague to infect the cell and in a small percentage of humans this protein was inaccessible to the virus. When they survived and reproduced their offspring possessed the same trait. For some time their was a very high percentage of humans in certain area of Europe that possessed this trait although due to movement and the intermixing of different people it’s no longer so common. But that is the same protein used by the HIV virus to infect a cell. So those who have retained the trait have a low likelyhood of becoming infected if exposed to HIV/AIDS. The survival and spread of that recessive trait would be another example of micro evolution. But since it became less necessary for survival it didn’t become dominant among all humans.


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In a similar vein (lol see what I did there?), many blacks are affected by sickle-cell anemia. But they were selected for it by the environment in much of africa, where mosquitoes carry malaria but sickle-cell anemia is associated with a strong resistance to it.

Also, lactose tolerance in people of northern european descent.