Ukraine invasion

[General Zod]

Poot is no doubt a bad guy, bad enough to nuke us? maybe.

Hopefully he's not so far gone as to look for a "blaze of glory" ending for himself and everyone else.

I'll also add...if we cower and step back every time Putin makes threats, then we might as well just give him free reign. Trump responded to him by ordering US troops in Syria to defend themselves from Putin's Wagner Group "mercenaries" (who answer to the Kremlin and are armed and trained by the Kremlin) with the result of dozens of dead Russians and Putin behaving himself until the dementia patient moved in to the White House. Now every time Putin makes threats, the administration makes noise about how we "can't escalate". All that does is encourage him because he sees weakness.

 

[Havok1]

I am not an expert but there seems to be indication that the money we are poring into Ukraine is being squandered; not a surprise considering the Biden administration lacks judgement of any sort. Perhaps some oversight is in order....after all, the average US taxpayer is ultimately paying....

Top Ukrainian Officials Resign After Blowing Billions of US Dollars on Cars, Mansions, and Vacations - UAF Report

Well, it's exactly what a lot of us were expecting. All of those billions of dollars that we have been sending over to Ukraine are just getting p*ssed away just like it does here. Government is almost entirely corrupt and it doesn't even matter where it is. They waste money like it's endless and as

uafreport.com

This is true, but just mindlessly throwing money at stuff is just what our government does. Ukraine is just the most recent example of it. They know it keeps their base who wants the government to “do something” happy even when we know it’s a huge waste.

 

[Havok1]

It's sad to see people living up to the latest liberal talking points about conservatives being pro-Russia. All this time I've argued with liberals that we're not, and that we remember when the left was weak on opposing the Soviets.

And then I see shit like this, with so many eager to carry water for Putin. Sorry, but I'm going to back an elected government (even one that's not perfect) over a neo-Soviet strongman any day.

How ironic. it’s hard to not see the similarities between liberals calling everyone they disagree with racist, and conservatives who label anyone who isn’t supporting FJB as pro Russia.

 

[General Zod]

How ironic. it’s hard to not see the similarities between liberals calling everyone they disagree with racist, and conservatives who label anyone who isn’t supporting FJB as pro Russia.

Funny...I'm not supporting the dementia patient and yet I can still see the value to our national security of helping Ukraine weaken Russia's military. And some of the comments here have been EXTREMELY pro-Russia. I'm not sure what else to call comments that directly quote Putin's talking points, or that defend Russian efforts to annex every former Soviet state they can.

Here's another funny thing...the Biden administration and the left don't want to support Ukraine. They were hoping this whole thing would blow over within a few weeks just like the invasion of Crimea did under Obama, so they could make noise about how they 'supported' the Ukrainian people while doing diddly-shit. The problem is, Ukraine didn't roll over and die like they were supposed to, so now the dems have to make a show of being supportive.

Know what I really support? Weakening Russia. Eroding Putin's influence. Because both of those are going to directly benefit the United States - especially with China prepping to start wars in the Pacific. Do you honestly think Russia would just sit still while China has us distracted? Why not let an expansionist invasion by Russia become a meat grinder for them to throw their forces into? Why not support a country that is dong its best to become a productive part of Europe while they resist Russian aggression - especially when that support can damage Russia's ability to project power? And if you have such a huge problem with weakening Russia, then I'd say you are, in fact, pro-Russia.

And how ironic that you make these accusations, then accuse me of being pro-Biden. Hypocrite.

 

[Armybrat]

Well said.

 

[leVieux]

Funny...I'm not supporting the dementia patient and yet I can still see the value to our national security of helping Ukraine weaken Russia's military. And some of the comments here have been EXTREMELY pro-Russia. I'm not sure what else to call comments that directly quote Putin's talking points, or that defend Russian efforts to annex every former Soviet state they can.

Here's another funny thing...the Biden administration and the left don't want to support Ukraine. They were hoping this whole thing would blow over within a few weeks just like the invasion of Crimea did under Obama, so they could make noise about how they 'supported' the Ukrainian people while doing diddly-shit. The problem is, Ukraine didn't roll over and die like they were supposed to, so now the dems have to make a show of being supportive.

Know what I really support? Weakening Russia. Eroding Putin's influence. Because both of those are going to directly benefit the United States - especially with China prepping to start wars in the Pacific. Do you honestly think Russia would just sit still while China has us distracted? Why not let an expansionist invasion by Russia become a meat grinder for them to throw their forces into? Why not support a country that is dong its best to become a productive part of Europe while they resist Russian aggression - especially when that support can damage Russia's ability to project power? And if you have such a huge problem with weakening Russia, then I'd say you are, in fact, pro-Russia.

And how ironic that you make these accusations, then accuse me of being pro-Biden. Hypocrite.

<>

Once more, you are constructing « straw men ».

I did not say those things. My posts are here for all to see.

Since when does « keeping an open mind » make one a « hypocrite » ?

The readers here can judge this all.

leVieux
.

 

[General Zod]

<>

Once more, you are constructing « straw men ».

I did not say those things. My posts are here for all to see.

Since when does « keeping an open mind » make one a « hypocrite » ?

The readers here can judge this all.

leVieux
.

And I wasn't responding to one of your posts. Persecution complex?

 

[cycleguy2300]

How ironic. it’s hard to not see the similarities between liberals calling everyone they disagree with racist, and conservatives who label anyone who isn’t supporting FJB as pro Russia.

I don't think anyone here supports biden the potato. He is feckless, retarded and has been on the wrong side of every choice he has ever made, including his lack of support for Ukriane. He constantly talks about not wanting to escalate, but a little more escalation, with more Abrams, munitions and maybe a few F16s and you put the brakes on the whole thing.

I suspect he and the other dems are supporting Ukraine, only because of their business interests and they backed themselves into a corner by painting Trump and putin as being buds. They couldn't admit that significant russian aggression only happened during their administrations or that Trump had slapped putler down and kept him in check after feeling out resolve in Syria.

FJB has made a lot of noise about helping Ukraine, but has mostly been filling his diaper. This is what support sounds like:







Надіслано з дому вашої мами за допомогою Tapatalk

 

[easy rider]

I am not now or have I ever been pro Russia in the political sense. I have just learned not to take everything on face value, especially if it comes from the corporate media. I used to call myself republican, because I felt my views were most inline with them. While I will vote republican in most cases, I know that many republican politicians are not much better than their democrat counterparts. I now call myself a libertarian leaning conservative. If the so called 'pandemic' taught me anything, it's that I have to question everything coming out of the government and their propaganda media.

While I can sympathize for the everyday citizen of Ukraine, I am not convinced their government or military is politically inline with our own values. While I do believe the U.S. should help in humanitarian means, I don't believe it's our fight. There have been many conflicts throughout the globe, yet the U.S. seems only to get involved if someone can get rich off of it.

 

[wiredgeorge]

If you are old enough, perhaps you will recall that USA & USSR more or less divided many of the 3rd world countries as our buds or theirs. I have personally witnessed a bunch of nasty countries become our surrogates in opposition to the Soviets while the Soviets took the opposing country as their surrogate. For instance, I was in the Ogaden Dessert during that dust up. Somali vs Ethiopia. Anybody remember who we sided with and armed? Who did the USSR side with and arm? Historically we have always backed one side or the other and in many cases neither was very great choice.

The Ruskies are the bad guys here in Ukraine and rootin-tootin-pootin is a very bad guy. I keep hearing he is having health issues and since you can't believe much of what you hear or read it is still interesting to conjecture that if he kicks the bucket or loses power due to health, would his successor be any less aggressive?

 

[Havok1]

Funny...I'm not supporting the dementia patient and yet I can still see the value to our national security of helping Ukraine weaken Russia's military. And some of the comments here have been EXTREMELY pro-Russia. I'm not sure what else to call comments that directly quote Putin's talking points, or that defend Russian efforts to annex every former Soviet state they can.

Here's another funny thing...the Biden administration and the left don't want to support Ukraine. They were hoping this whole thing would blow over within a few weeks just like the invasion of Crimea did under Obama, so they could make noise about how they 'supported' the Ukrainian people while doing diddly-shit. The problem is, Ukraine didn't roll over and die like they were supposed to, so now the dems have to make a show of being supportive.

Know what I really support? Weakening Russia. Eroding Putin's influence. Because both of those are going to directly benefit the United States - especially with China prepping to start wars in the Pacific. Do you honestly think Russia would just sit still while China has us distracted? Why not let an expansionist invasion by Russia become a meat grinder for them to throw their forces into? Why not support a country that is dong its best to become a productive part of Europe while they resist Russian aggression - especially when that support can damage Russia's ability to project power? And if you have such a huge problem with weakening Russia, then I'd say you are, in fact, pro-Russia.

And how ironic that you make these accusations, then accuse me of being pro-Biden. Hypocrite.

whether you consider yourself an FJB supporter or not doesn’t matter. You’re still supporting what his handlers are doing for their, and zelenskys benefits not the Ukrainian population, and calling those who don’t support it pro Russia.

How many of the actual Russian supporters in this thread were trolls that have been banned, as opposed to people not necessarily supporting Putin’s actions, but understanding his point of view?

the argument about weakening the Russian military is…weak. I never understood why so many people thought they were so big and bad prior to this invasion. But oh well. We are weakening an already weak military, and that is coming at a great expense to the American people. Meanwhile, any real threats that Russia pose to America remain unchanged.

 

[General Zod]

whether you consider yourself an FJB supporter or not doesn’t matter. You’re still supporting what his handlers are doing for their, and zelenskys benefits...

Bullshit.

Cycleguy is right - the Dems painted themselves into a corner with all the "Trump is a Russian asset" crap they've been spewing, as well as their dirty dealings (indlucing with Biden's spawn) with previous Ukrainian administrations - including the pro-Russian one that was booted out before the Crimea invasion. Or do you not remember Biden bragging about withholding US aid until the prosecutor investigating corruption at Burisma was taken off the case?

What Biden's handlers are doing is the bare minimum to look like they're supporting Ukraine so they can use attitudes like yours to continue painting us as pro-Russia stooges. And they're adding up the prices of the war weary vehicles we send as if they were brand new off the assembly line so they can brag about all the billions they're sending what what they're really doing is cleaning out the boneyards.

What I support is giving Ukraine the means they need to crush the Russian invaders once and for all. And if that makes Ukraine grateful to us, and encourages them to become a stronger ally in the region, then fine. Or do we only ally with nations that have perfect, corruption-free governments? As if we have one?

We've been very lucky to find out that the Russian military was a hollow force. That doesn't mean we need to let them rebuild it easily. Russia needs to relieved of their ability to threaten their neighbors and create havoc should we have to go to war with China. Leaving them unchecked would not be a smart strategy. Nor is the knee-jerk "if Biden is being told to say it's a good idea, then we must oppose it at all costs" strategy. Because what they say is not in line with what they're doing.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

I agree with H1.

I'm not PRO-russia, but I'm also not a zel fan (he absolutely is a dictator) or on board with funding our proxy war with our weapons and/or billions and billions of our tax money.

Well, why not?

It's not 'OUR' war.

When bidet abandoned our troops in Afghanistan and American civilians still there and those who helped us like interpreters and untold numbers of resources in the way of aircraft/weapons/ammo - at least, I thought we've finally stopped fighting wars that we have no business fighting.

But, here we are again...and don't believe for a moment we don't have troops over there in addition to everything else we're giving them...

What percentage of the billions we're providing are siphoned off to feed their corrupt politicians (or bounced back to our corrupt pols)...a little...a lot?

No, we should bail out of uke - it's not our war to fight...

 

[Havok1]

I don't think anyone here supports biden the potato. He is feckless, retarded and has been on the wrong side of every choice he has ever made, including his lack of support for Ukriane. He constantly talks about not wanting to escalate, but a little more escalation, with more Abrams, munitions and maybe a few F16s and you put the brakes on the whole thing.

I suspect he and the other dems are supporting Ukraine, only because of their business interests and they backed themselves into a corner by painting Trump and putin as being buds. They couldn't admit that significant russian aggression only happened during their administrations or that Trump had slapped putler down and kept him in check after feeling out resolve in Syria.

FJB has made a lot of noise about helping Ukraine, but has mostly been filling his diaper. This is what support sounds like:







Надіслано з дому вашої мами за допомогою Tapatalk

I agree with most of this. especially the bolded part, which is why I wonder why people can’t see the flaws in supporting what his handlers/congress is doing.

In my opinion, people need to be able to see that there is a difference between supporting the ukranian population, and supporting US involvement there, and opinions on that are not necessarily based on supporting Russia.

 

[Havok1]

Bullshit.

Cycleguy is right - the Dems painted themselves into a corner with all the "Trump is a Russian asset" crap they've been spewing, as well as their dirty dealings (indlucing with Biden's spawn) with previous Ukrainian administrations - including the pro-Russian one that was booted out before the Crimea invasion. Or do you not remember Biden bragging about withholding US aid until the prosecutor investigating corruption at Burisma was taken off the case?

What Biden's handlers are doing is the bare minimum to look like they're supporting Ukraine so they can use attitudes like yours to continue painting us as pro-Russia stooges. And they're adding up the prices of the war weary vehicles we send as if they were brand new off the assembly line so they can brag about all the billions they're sending what what they're really doing is cleaning out the boneyards.

What I support is giving Ukraine the means they need to crush the Russian invaders once and for all. And if that makes Ukraine grateful to us, and encourages them to become a stronger ally in the region, then fine. Or do we only ally with nations that have perfect, corruption-free governments? As if we have one?

We've been very lucky to find out that the Russian military was a hollow force. That doesn't mean we need to let them rebuild it easily. Russia needs to relieved of their ability to threaten their neighbors and create havoc should we have to go to war with China. Leaving them unchecked would not be a smart strategy. Nor is the knee-jerk "if Biden is being told to say it's a good idea, then we must oppose it at all costs" strategy. Because what they say is not in line with what they're doing.

Or maybe it wasn’t lucky at all. Maybe the people who figured that out last year just aren’t as knowledgeable as they thought.

 

[General Zod]

Or maybe it wasn’t lucky at all. Maybe the people who figured that out last year just aren’t as knowledgeable as they thought.

Or maybe it's just more widespread than anyone could have imagined. We all knew their new MiGs were impressive, but only 9 could be bought. Their new tanks were certainly shiny, but fewer than 30 were bought. The surprise was the complete and total lack of strategy, the sorry state of the equipment they already had, and their lack of supplies. But we'd have been foolish to count on that being the case without proof.

It's easy to look back and say "oh, yeah, we knew that" when you knew nothing of the sort. Hindsight is 20/20, but bragging about false hindsight is dishonest.

 

[Havok1]

Or maybe it's just more widespread than anyone could have imagined. We all knew their new MiGs were impressive, but only 9 could be bought. Their new tanks were certainly shiny, but fewer than 30 were bought. The surprise was the complete and total lack of strategy, the sorry state of the equipment they already had, and their lack of supplies. But we'd have been foolish to count on that being the case without proof.

It's easy to look back and say "oh, yeah, we knew that" when you knew nothing of the sort. Hindsight is 20/20, but bragging about false hindsight is dishonest.

I don’t think all of this is as surprising as you think. Some of it, maybe. But not all of it.

 

[General Zod]

I don’t think all of this is as surprising as you think. Some of it, maybe. But not all of it.

Sending their troops to the front with rations that expired in 2005, in trucks whose tires were made in the Soviet Union, and wearing body armor made of cardboard sewn into a plate carrier while armed with Mosins? Pretty sure you can't even claim to have expected that.

Or to see a Russian army hampered by the weather in winter.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

GZ,

Rations made in 2005?

Hold it!

I ate C-rations as a U.S. Army Infantry soldier in 1967 that were of WW2 vintage...not Korea war vintage...WW2, and they were quite edible still.

In addition, we got a 4-pack of Lucky Strikes (green pack) with every carton of C-Rats, though they weren't fresh enough to smoke...

Old, often means, no fking good, but not with C-rats and I'm guessing the amount of delicious 'food extenders' in the MRE's give them a half- life of a 1000 years...or more

Besides, are we to treat the uke troops any better than we treat our own?

They want 'free shit', they can eat what our troops get to savour...

On another note, I read we only send them our old and worn out gear...uh-huh, the U.S. military too get's to enjoy dated gear and learned to use it well...so can they...or they can reject it...gee-sus, beggars can't be choosers or so I've heard...

Sorry, but reading that the gear/munitions we send isn't brand, spanking new sounds a little 'sour-grape-ish' and more than a little like 'we uke's rate the newest, super duper, highest quality available stuff, but the billions and billions you send is ok, I guess...ough-ta be trillions and trillions, (ya cheap bastids) but, if that's the best you U.S. taxpayers will give away, but ok, we'll settle for billions and billions...

 

[General Zod]

GZ,

Rations made in 2005?

Hold it!

I ate C-rations as a U.S. Army Infantry soldier in 1967 that were of WW2 vintage...not Korea war vintage...WW2, and they were quite edible still.

In addition, we got a 4-pack of Lucky Strikes (green pack) with every carton of C-Rats, though they weren't fresh enough to smoke...

Old, often means, no fking good, but not with C-rats and I'm guessing the amount of delicious 'food extenders' in the MRE's give them a half- life of a 1000 years...or more

Besides, are we to treat the uke troops any better than we treat our own?

They want 'free shit', they can eat what our troops get to savour...

On another note, I read we only send them our old and worn out gear...uh-huh, the U.S. military too get's to enjoy dated gear and learned to use it well...so can they...or they can reject it...gee-sus, beggars can't be choosers or so I've heard...

Sorry, but reading that the gear/munitions we send isn't brand, spanking new sounds a little 'sour-grape-ish' and more than a little like 'we uke's rate the newest, super duper, highest quality available stuff, but the billions and billions you send is ok, I guess...ough-ta be trillions and trillions, (ya cheap bastids) but, if that's the best you U.S. taxpayers will give away, but ok, we'll settle for billions and billions...

Re-read it, MM - rations that expired in 2005. And that's the Russians. C-rats made in the 40s might still be edible to this day, but I kind of doubt Russian rations would be. That was an example of how poorly equipped the Russian army is in Ukraine, not a lament for the plight of the Ukrainian soldier. One thing they seem to be doing well is feeding their troops. Home field advantage and all that.

And I'm not sure where you're getting that I'm complaining that the Ukrainians are getting older gear. I'm pointing it out to those who are bitching and moaning about the "billions of dollars" we're supposedly spending arming them - when a vast majority of the gear we send them was bought and paid for decades ago and has been in storage, costing us money for upkeep even though it was just sitting there.

There's no sour grapes here, there's "stop taking what the press says at face value". If you're gonna rake me over the coals, try not to do it for things we appear to agree on. I haven't heard of the Ukrainians refusing a single item they've been sent, but I've heard a lot of people spinning bullshit about us supposedly sending them stuff our troops need.