Instructors Wearing Body Armor during CHL and Pistol Courses

[Green Eye Tactical]

Israeli bandages anyone?

The Israeli bandage is just a pressure bandage. You're taking up room for things that will work. They aren't used in any SOF kits. The thing about Israeli dressings is that they only work for bleeding that is occurring at the pressure site. Serious bleeding is usually caused by arterial damage- and they have the tendency to retract towards the body from the wound site. So the pressure at the wound site won't work. For the mall percentage of trauma wounds that a pressure bandage will work for- a tourniquet will work better on. So, less gear to carry.

@Shorts- Hemostatic dressing an excellent tool, but as your buddy eluded to: if you don't know how or when to use it, you can really screw somebody up. Also- the risks of tourniquets are largely over-hyped. Job #1 now is- KEEP THE BLOOD IN THE BODY. Because IV fluid doesn't transport oxygen. Your Doc buddies at KAF should be ale to source you some TC3 material.

For those of you that are doing your own research on modern combat medical techniques:
- Look into SF and SOF sources first. They are the proponency for TC3 training. They will also be he most up to date.
- If you can't find that, look for Dept. of the Army sources (a few will come up on google)- they are the next best thing.
- I would stay away from civilian sources, because they are behind the power curve on getting up to speed on these things. (I've seen civilian docs walk out of TC3 classes when they are shown to safety pin a casualty's tongue to their shirt to maintain an airway.)

 

[breakingcontact]

I do have some decent one handed tourniquets. I havent really studied gunshot wound care like some of you all. I thought the Israeli bandages were considered good (probably because they have the word Israeli in them).

In the military our first aid was very very basic and im sure outdated to some extent.

Thanks for the stimulating conversation.

 

[Mreed911]

With tampons, it doesn't work. And you won't find it taught by anyone reputable that is current. What is taught now is to go from direct pressure to tourniquets. So, instead of carrying women's sanitary products- carry CATs or SOF-T's.

I am a medic. I might as well be in a combat environment - ghetto is close enough. We moved to tourniquets (specifically replacing israeli bandages) two years ago and just started replacing our quick-clot dressings with quick-clot combat gauze. The amount of knowledge and experience trickling down to the street from the military is tremendous.

For the medics on the list - if you're not practicing permissive hypotension, you should be. Read up.

And get ready for TXA - tranexamic acid. That's coming soon, too. We're already evaluating 1g IVP vs. 1g over 10min in 100ml of saline.

 

[M. Sage]

Either a pretty bold or pretty ignorant statement. I don't have enough current training on any new methods to know the difference, so I appreciate your input. I'll have to read up on your acronyms. Thanks for the input.

It's neither. If you're worried about treating a gunshot wound, heed what he's telling you.

 

[F350-6]

Agsin, he is right. A lot has changed.

I think you just politely told me I was old.

The Israeli bandage is just a pressure bandage. You're taking up room for things that will work. They aren't used in any SOF kits.

I get what you're saying, but for most here, with access to 911 and emergency medical response, a pressure bandage used by a novice is likely the most you could reasonably expect. The SOF guys are in an entirely different scenario and have entirely different training.

And don't worry about the acronyms. I've ran across my share of them, I'm just not as familiar with the newer or Army versions.

It's neither. If you're worried about treating a gunshot wound, heed what he's telling you.

I'm by no means ignoring what he's telling me. I have treated a gun shot wound in the past, but have no plans of ever doing so again in the future (fingers crossed). My experience (from the Flinstone era apparently) is there are too many variables to account for unless you're a trained medical type. The tools may be more fancy now, but the basics are the same. Depending on the injury location, treatment options vary, but we're talking about ways to stop the bleeding. If we aim at center mass, we should be prepared to treat center mass injuries in my opinion. That often means pressure, learning to treat a sucking chest wound, and hoping there's no internal bleeding while you wait on real medical help.

Of course the real difference here is I'm only focusing on the basics while Eric is focusing on advanced response. It's almost like he makes a living teaching this stuff or something.

 

[Shorts]

You're old F350-6! lol
Don't worry man, you're not off on your own. I'm certain that most folks if asked how to treat a bleeder would choose direct pressure. It's the most basic thing we've been taught for a long time. Lord knows I'm no doctor so I wouldn't know if an artery was bleeding or not. The envionment I would be working in has a lot to do with success rates for wound care. Out on patol in AFG takes longer to get wounded to the hospital than on a city street in the USA. The things we do here at home offer a better margin of success for less than optimum care than top notch care in the middle of the desert. Just the difference in timing and when a victim can be got under pro care.

Anyway, it's a good discussion. It let's us go over the basics but also plants the seeds for advanced and updated methods. Who knows when that knowledge will come in handy.

 

[mosin]

as a newb to anything more than a basic first aid class years ago, I just wanted to say this thread got me thinking about a lot of stuff so thanks. Might go find a basic class and throw a kit in the range bag. Been needing to throw together some first aid stuff in our cars for a while as well. I'm yet to run into complete idiots at a range but a ~$230 police surplus vest to throw under a t-shirt seems like cheap insurance to cut down on potential injury.

 

[M. Sage]

I'm by no means ignoring what he's telling me. I have treated a gun shot wound in the past, but have no plans of ever doing so again in the future (fingers crossed). My experience (from the Flinstone era apparently) is there are too many variables to account for unless you're a trained medical type. The tools may be more fancy now, but the basics are the same. Depending on the injury location, treatment options vary, but we're talking about ways to stop the bleeding. If we aim at center mass, we should be prepared to treat center mass injuries in my opinion. That often means pressure, learning to treat a sucking chest wound, and hoping there's no internal bleeding while you wait on real medical help.

Of course the real difference here is I'm only focusing on the basics while Eric is focusing on advanced response. It's almost like he makes a living teaching this stuff or something.

In some ways, the reaction to someone getting shot is simpler now. Extremity wounds, especially. Old days, you'd try pressure before tourniquet and then IIRC there was a periodic loosening of the tourniquet to see if the flow had been stopped etc. Now it's tourniquet and transport, no time wasted screwing around trying to make something work, no effort spent hoping that the leak has been stopped. Just jump straight to cutting blood flow, load the person up and get them to someone who can really help.

Since the subject at hand is about instructors worried about being accidentally shot, I don't think focusing just on torso wounds is fair. And like I pointed out before, strapping on a vest takes a lot of that worry out of the equation.

 

[AustinN4]

Since GSW's has its own thread now, maybe this one could get back on topic.

Medical Techniques/Classes specifically about GSWs
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/...chniques-classes-specifically-about-gsws.html

 

[Greybeard]

Virtually all of my students are qualified in a 2-position indoor range now and I have not worn body armor since assisting with larger groups of people outdoors in the mid 1990s.

 

[Hoji]

Virtually all of my students are qualified in a 2-position indoor range now and I have not worn body armor since assisting with larger groups of people outdoors in the mid 1990s.

Bullet proof partitions?

 

[heymak]

I'm not an instructor, but after taking a basic pistol and CHL bundle class, several students inadvertently pointed their weapons at me during the classroom phase. I caught myself stepping out of their line of fire several times. Just seems like it would make sense for an instructor to wear body armor, law of averages and Murphy's law you know.

 

[ares338]

I don't teach and from the few ranges I have visited I would wear body armor if I were just shooting. It's a jungle out there...LOL. I have my own private range and have no fear of the rabbits and armadillos shooting at me. A few of the coyotes I'm not sure of though!

 

[Handgun World]

I don't teach public CHL anymore even though I'm still a certified CHL instructor. Too many knuckleheads handling weapons around me and I don't want to wear armor. I can much more easily evaluate the students coming to my defensive handgun classes, and 99% of them have their safety fundamentals squared away.

I only do private CHL's for people I know.

www.handgunworld.com

 

[HDP Chris]

From my LE experience in the past, I found it surprising that body armor was not required, when I went to the range with my academy class.
It felt odd to shoot with soon to be officers that could barely cut paper and not have any armor on. I have not been to a civilian range in years,
but from my past experience, the shooters are much safer. None the less I am a proponent of armor. I would think no less of an instructor that wore armor.

 

[1911style]

Bullet proof partitions?

That's a good point. Does anyone know if the partitions at most of the indoor ranges are bullet proof?

 

[Hoji]

That's a good point. Does anyone know if the partitions at most of the indoor ranges are bullet proof?

I was kind of being a wiseass. I have never seen bullet proof partitions at an indoor range.

 

[RACER X]

When I retook my chl in August, instr Wore armor and I never extended my body out past the bullet proof dividers.

Tactical firearms in Katy.

That shows what I and the inst felt of the caliber of the students.


Athena gun club also has BP dividers


sent from my phone far far away, still monitored by NSA

 

[Das Jared]

When I retook my chl in August, instr Wore armor and I never extended my body out past the bullet proof dividers.

Tactical firearms in Katy.

That shows what I and the inst felt of the caliber of the students.


Athena gun club also has BP dividers


sent from my phone far far away, still monitored by NSA

Or, it could just be that anyone wprli g at tactical firearms, is a tacticool douche..





Flame on!

sent from Jennifer Lawrence's bedroom

 

[V-Tach]

wprli g

Encryption?