Instructors Wearing Body Armor during CHL and Pistol Courses

[M. Sage]

Is he an instructor or not? Is he being paid money or not? Is he responsible for creating a safe environment or not? The body armor cast doubt on the system he created. Most importantly, it sends the message to the students that they were knowingly put in an unnecessarily unsafe environment and weren't even given a heads up.

You know there is a fire extinguisher system for the engines of every plane you've been on, right? Does that cast doubt on the safety systems created for those aircraft? No! It's part of those safety systems.

Let's take the one guy in this situation who probably knows better what he's doing than anybody else and put THAT guy at greater risk of a sucking chest wound. Makes tons of sense...

Quick! Someone just accidentally shot your instructor and he's incapacitated! Where's the blowout kit? Where's the nearest medical facility? What, you were planning on waiting for an ambulance!? Fail.

 

[HillRider]

You know there is a fire extinguisher system for the engines of every plane you've been on, right? Does that cast doubt on the safety systems created for those aircraft? No! It's part of those safety systems.

Let's take the one guy in this situation who probably knows better what he's doing than anybody else and put THAT guy at greater risk of a sucking chest wound. Makes tons of sense...

Quick! Someone just accidentally shot your instructor and he's incapacitated! Where's the blowout kit? Where's the nearest medical facility? What, you were planning on waiting for an ambulance!? Fail.

Better analogy would be you're on a plane and only the pilot has a floatation device under his seat and oxygen mask in the compartment above. Oh, and they don't go through that redundant emergency spiel. And only the pilot and crew have an emergency exit. Yeah, the plane could crash, but to hell with you because you should have been smart enough to realize that.

 

[M. Sage]

Better analogy would be you're on a plane and only the pilot has a floatation device under his seat and oxygen mask in the compartment above. Oh, and they don't go through that redundant emergency spiel. And only the pilot and crew have an emergency exit. Yeah, the plane could crash, but to hell with you because you should have been smart enough to realize that.

Who says the instructor isn't going to do all the other safety stuff if he's wearing a vest or follow any of the other prudent safety procedures he/she would otherwise? Hell of a presumption on your part, and some piss poor logic if I say so.

Honestly, someone who's worried enough to carry extra personal protective equipment is probably going to be more anal about his students' safety. I'd bet on a better blowout kit, better training to use it, and emergency plans in place in case that kit ever needs to be used.

FWIW, I was discussing this subject with someone a little while ago. Did you know that (at least in the '90s when he was in) Army SF guys would put on body armor to teach firearms classes? That's something they did pretty regularly - everything from "Big Army" soldiers to foreign troops to the occasional SWAT team.

Reading it again, it looks like the post I quoted is less about you being worried that the instructor might be lazy about safety procedures because he's got a vest, and more about jealousy that he's not providing you with body armor, too. You're free to buy and bring your own. I guess I'm weird for owning a IIIA concealable (imagine me making " " signs with my fingers).

Yeah, he'll overlook safety stuff if he's wearing a vest. 'Cause we all know getting shot is a breeze when you're wearing a vest, and bullets never find openings in the vest, or arteries in extremities, or someone's head...

Any body armor is about reducing the chance. If it bugs you that other people have vests, go buy your own. They're not cheap, so don't expect me to supply you with one.

 

[M. Sage]

Story time, and why I think it's not a bad idea to wear a vest even if you're teaching basic handgun marksmanship:

A range owner I knew got shot by a student once. It was an indoor range, he was teaching a father and son on a Ruger Mk II pistol. Son dropped the gun, dad reached out and caught it... and put a .22 bullet in the range owner's gut. Ambulance, hospital, surgery, recovery, the whole deal... Lots of expense, more than a little danger to his life during the whole ordeal.

If he'd been wearing kevlar, it would have been "ow, ****!" and he'd have slept in his own bed that night.

 

[HillRider]

Missing the point. Not against wearing it. Probably a smart investment for everyone. No jealousy, come on. Not talking military, but ordinary civilian training environment. Can see how some folks, mostly newbies, would find it odd in that type of environment. If it is your job to accept money in a business from those types of folks, you are to an extent prisoner to their naïve impressions and probably should explain it to them. Unless you think it will hurt business somehow.

 

[M. Sage]

Well, recovering from a student's negligent discharge tends to put a big negative dent in your life. Being killed by one, more so.

 

[txinvestigator]

Is he an instructor or not? Is he being paid money or not? Is he responsible for creating a safe environment or not? The body armor cast doubt on the system he created. Most importantly, it sends the message to the students that they were knowingly put in an unnecessarily unsafe environment and weren't even given a heads up.

A CHL instructor didn't create any system. Your other questions actually strenghten the argument for body armor.

Do you wear eye protection when you shoot?

 

[txinvestigator]

Missing the point. Not against wearing it. Probably a smart investment for everyone. No jealousy, come on. Not talking military, but ordinary civilian training environment. Can see how some folks, mostly newbies, would find it odd in that type of environment. If it is your job to accept money in a business from those types of folks, you are to an extent prisoner to their naïve impressions and probably should explain it to them. Unless you think it will hurt business somehow.

An instructor is not a prisoner to his students thinking. Quite the contrary. He educates them. You are missing the point, I think.

 

[Hoji]

For CHL I been known to wear concealed body armor. I have had more than one student turn around and point a gun at me.

In advanced classes where we move and shoot, turn, etc I wear armor. I have been to classes where we conducted two man tactics and very dynamic training and BA is mandatory.

I wear BA during guard classes.

This.

 

[TX69]

I'd sy its a must and I am surprised more that I have seen don't wear one. Most humans are idiots and accidents happen.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

An instructor is not a prisoner to his students thinking. Quite the contrary. He educates them. You are missing the point, I think.

Expanding on that, it's my personal opinion that firearms instructors' jobs should also be in educating students on the severity of the subject, NOT sugarcoating it for them. I understand using restraint, as not all students can handle the unvarnished truth up front and all at once. Still, I think it's important not understating the importance of safety, the ultimate purpose of firearms (Killing. A subject and question they will need to resolve in their own minds), and the end result of being forced to use them for that intended purpose, and/or the end result as well as cost of negligence. I don't think I can overstate the importance of that. A good instructor's job isn't to instill a false sense of self-confidence in students, which unfortunately is what some of the industry caters to.

 

[TXDARKHORSE361]

Expanding on that, it's my personal opinion that firearms instructors' jobs should also be in educating students on the severity of the subject, NOT sugarcoating it for them. I understand using restraint, as not all students can handle the unvarnished truth up front and all at once. Still, I think it's important not understating the importance of safety, the ultimate purpose of firearms (Killing. A subject and question they will need to resolve in their own minds), and the end result of being forced to use them for that intended purpose, and/or the end result as well as cost of negligence. I don't think I can overstate the importance of that. A good instructor's job isn't to instill a false sense of self-confidence in students, which unfortunately is what some of the industry caters to.

I think this is very true especially in regards to the OP in which was pertaining to a CHL class. I am not an instructor but I have been a RSO for quite a few CHL classes and the lack of firearm safety is mind boggling. But to the point I know the CHL class is so easy someone who has never fired a gun before can pass but especially those people need to realize if you're gonna carry you better take it seriously.

 

[breakingcontact]

Poor gun handling turns disastorous when the rules are broken and these things happen in a context where MANY including some mil, LE and even people who fancy themselves as gun types dont actually understand how firearms work mechanically. For instance...why do some makers insist on making guns with mag disconnect safeties? Because so many people dont understand that dropping a mag doesnt remove all them little boolits from the gun if there is one chambered (yes i know some prefer that setup)

I have never messed with vests but this thread does have me thinking about getting one. Are they legal to wear in public in TX?

 

[Mreed911]

If you're not a felon, generally, yes.

 

[txinvestigator]

I have never messed with vests but this thread does have me thinking about getting one. Are they legal to wear in public in TX?

Yep, as long as you are not a felon. I have a front panel from an old vest I am going to place in my backpack. Great for travel.....

 

[M. Sage]

There's a company in Austin that sells used armor; bulletproofme.com.

 

[breakingcontact]

There's a company in Austin that sells used armor; bulletproofme.com.

I'm very interested in this. Thanks!

 

[F350-6]

Interesting discussion. I thank you all for your frank and honest opinions.

To me it is a piece of safety equipment. Doesn't mean I don't trust anyone, or that I think anyone in particular is unsafe or I am some kind of macho operator.

Would anyone think not having a first aid kit is a good idea on a range? Would anyone be upset because we have fire extinguishers on the range?

Just a thought.......

I never said you were wrong, only shared the impression I would have if you showed up wearing a visible vest for a CHL class.

I think V-Tach has a great point about other safety gear.

I need to carry a better PFAK, when on the range.

Don't forget the tampons. (literally, not being a smarta$$ here)

 

[txinvestigator]

I never said you were wrong, only shared the impression I would have if you showed up wearing a visible vest for a CHL class.



Don't forget the tampons. (literally, not being a smarta$$ here)

Yeah, valid point. I prefer quick clot gauze these days......

 

[V-Tach]

Tampons are over rated anyway.....