Help me understand being religious

[JohnnyLoco]

The reason the disorders you mentioned have been named is because they entail a very specific way of thinking. Being "religious" or "non religious" are both pretty vague when it comes to the way someone actually thinks.

Just because I own a truck does not mean I know why another person owns a truck, nor could I say with much validity why someone else owns a large SUV or compact car. It would be nothing more than a guess.

Okay. I mean, only one of the most famous psychological books of the last century, by William James, was written on this subject. Oh yeah, guys like Kant, Feuerbach, and Freud had a lot to say on the subject as well.

But you know more.

 

[Younggun]

Freuds work has been highly debated, even by other psychologists. Many don't consider his theories to be legitimate any longer.

Aside from that, this thread has managed to stay respectful without the little quips. It has, up to this point, been a respectful conversation. Let's keep it that way.

 

[breakingcontact]

Freuds work has been highly debated, even by other psychologists. Many don't consider his theories to be legitimate any longer.

Aside from that, this thread has managed to stay respectful without the little quips. It has, up to this point, been a respectful conversation. Let's keep it that way.

Agreed. It can be done!

I need to go to bed. I just read the phrase "buffer face" as "butter face".

Still thundering and raining outside ATX.

 

[Younggun]

I read it 3 times before I saw a difference.

 

[OnyxATX]

Same here. "Butter face wear"

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Freuds work has been highly debated, even by other psychologists. Many don't consider his theories to be legitimate any longer.

Aside from that, this thread has managed to stay respectful without the little quips. It has, up to this point, been a respectful conversation. Let's keep it that way.

I think it has been kept that way.

I'm no Freudian, but I find it interesting how you can try to brush away over a hundred years of detailed thought with one sentence.
It certainly gives insight into how you like to process ideas, religious and non-religious.

The point is not whether you agree with Freud or the others, but how the whole field of psychology is built on the very premise that you can understand others and the way they think.

 

[jrbfishn]

Some of the things people think simply can not be explained.
Why people do things or feel things in general, yes. But certain things defy all speculation and rationalization. Religion or lack of, is one.


from a non-recovering coffeeholic

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

I am willing to admit I don't understand religion and faith. Perhaps you don't understand non-religious folks?

I'm willing to admit this. I don't understand that frame of mind, but I'm trying to so that I can explain my thoughts better.

I hope no one thinks any of these posts are personal attacks. When you care about people you want them to prosper and know what you know. You want what is best for them.

But you can't make someone believe just like you can't make someone follow mans laws. The choice is up to each person.

I don't consider this thread nagging though. Folks can choose to skip right over it and go to the hundreds of others if they like.

 

[Younggun]

I'm willing to admit this. I don't understand that frame of mind, but I'm trying to so that I can explain my thoughts better.

I hope no one thinks any of these posts are personal attacks. When you care about people you want them to prosper and know what you know. You want what is best for them.

But you can't make someone believe just like you can't make someone follow mans laws. The choice is up to each person.

I don't consider this thread nagging though. Folks can choose to skip right over it and go to the hundreds of others if they like.

I haven't taken anything in this thread as nagging.

For the most part we have been attempting to explain our own beliefs without "pushing" them on someone else. Pretty sure that has gone a long ways towards keeping things civil.

 

[Sapper740]

The Koran calls for the protection and elevations of the followers of Jesus for he is the son and prophet of Allah (which just means 'God' just as Jehovah means 'God' in Hebrew). There are parts that have been translated and bastardized by different radicals in every religion and from every holy book. The Bible calls for the killing of all non-believers (infidels) as well.
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If you take the time to read the different books and not look at them with personal or taught bias, you will see that if you change the word that is used to name the almighty being much of it is the same.

What you forget is that Christians have a new Covenant with our God after Jesus died for our sins. We no longer suffer Old Testament punishments such as being put to death for working on the Sabbath for instance. Moslems, on the other hand, have the same "covenant" with Allah that they have always had. Comparing New Testament rules for living and interacting with others to the Koran's is like comparing a 2014 Corvette to a Ford Model T.

 

[Sapper740]

I'd also like to say that I am a much better person since I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior. Before, I was selfish, prideful, and lead a very hedonistic lifestyle. Now, I find great joy in service, charity, and peace. Thank you Lord for lifting the veil of ignorance from my eyes!

 

[Ny700]

I'd also like to say that I am a much better person since I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior. Before, I was selfish, prideful, and lead a very hedonistic lifestyle. Now, I find great joy in service, charity, and peace. Thank you Lord for lifting the veil of ignorance from my eyes!

A statement like that is the single best reason why I as a non believer am complety ok with those that choose a faith based life. Cause for some folks it is what enables them to achieve that level of I don't know personal enlightenment.
What I question is, well I guess a question of the ages as some one pointed out earlier. Was it really a religion. Was I simply now surrounding yourself with people who were trying to better themselves.
I have a problem with accepting any one religion as the "right" or "correct" religion. If life is a journey then it is only logical to acknowledge that there is more than one path. So on that same mindset isn't it possible to say that any religion or maybe all religions if practiced in their purist and most selfless for a would get you to the same spot and if so wouldn't a religionless life if lived in the same virtuoso and selfless also get you there.


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[breakingcontact]

You've got to serve somebody.

 

[Eli]

OK, I actually scanned through this entire thread. I was raised secular/'reform' Jewish, and recently completed an orthodox conversion - no easy task!
I get up and pray every morning, afternoon, and night. I wear a kippa (skullcap) nearly always, I wear tzitzit (strings on a 4-cornered garment) the vast majority of the time. I wrap tefillin regularly (you shall bind them...) and eat only kosher food. It isn't easy, and wasn't meant to be.

Now let start this by saying I'm asking a very real question. My intent here is not to in any way what so ever put down degrade offend or beliddle any participant of this forum or the world for that matter.
I am honestly trying to understand a mindset that just seems so foreign to me and that I just for the life of me can't fully comprehend. I do hope that people who choose to partake in this discussion read this post first otherwise if all they do is reply based of the replies below this will certainly derail (very much like most things in the real world based off the media).
So some back ground to try to set where my thought are coming from. I was raised in a fairly populated suburban area that would be considered fairly diverse. As such I was exposed to from a young age most established religions and I had friends growing up, close friends, who were members a a wide variety of churches temples mosques and so on.
I grew up in a time where it was perfectly except able to have a nativity out in front of a school a business a church or even yes even a government building with out protest. In grade school we "celebrated" the Christian holidays we discussed and acknowledged the Jewish holidays. In later years kwanza made it's first appearance and even the cafeteria was opened special hours to accommodate Muslim students during Ramadan.
I grew up in a house with two parents of different religious backing. Neither was uber religious but they followed the basics of their respective religion I would say like most religious American actually do and they took me to both houses of worship and discussed the principals of their respective religion.
My school district discussed religion a lot. It was discussed in literature classes. Creative writing classes economic classes and of course history class. And it was in history classes that we really laid out the religions when they broke off from one another we discussed in depth the tenants that were disputed by one faction or the other the influence kings had in the formation of religion and the enflurane powerful bishops and priests had on certain kingdoms.
So I would say I've been exposed to religion. I understand it's beginnings and I see wherever is today. I also understand that the vast majority of religion is based on faith. Ultimately the object of ones faith in something could never be proven until they are gone. A statement of a dear friend summarized went like this " I'm hedging my bets cause if it's real and I did nothing I'm screwed and if it's nothing than all I did was waste some time".
I've had people say religion guides them morally. So I have to beg the question what moral decision do you feel you would have gotten wrong had it not been for religion. The big one maybe the easiest is to not kill. If religion did not exist would a person feel it's ok to kill? There was a time in human history before religion and people didn't just kill people anymore so than they do today.
Knowing what we know about history. Knowing what we know about people. When you take those in the world cut out the BS and just look at people there are simply families trying to survive what ever challenges they have in front of them the same as you or eye regardless of their religious doctrine. I guess I question even the "need" of faith. People say it's a leap of faith. Why are you leaping when everything is right around you. My happiness my sadness my excitement an my pain is right here with me and with all the people I call family and friend. What is faith giving me beyond the trust I share with those I hold close.
To finish out cause I cod go on for days. I do actually believe in God. Let's call it not a religious god. I don't give it a name I don't give it a sex. So why does someone who doesn't believe in religion believe in god and I tell people because I'm not a completely foolish person. Science can explain a lot. But one thing science will never beable to explain is something from absolutely nothing. Regardless what your theory is on the creation of the universe be it a twilight zone vision or Big Bang. Once upon a time an atom of something came from pure nothingness and science will never explain that.


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What were your parents, and where the hell are you from?

I didn't grow up in the Church. So I understand how some dont "get it". I didnt either for most of my life. But once that switch was flipped there is no shutting it off.

You've got to know when to use a Bible and when to use a rifle.

I'd agree to that! I started learning a little about Judaism, and here I am today fully orthodox - bordering on 'ultra-orthodox' in many ways.

I first heard of this when listening to Dennis Prager on AM660 "The Answer". Mr. Prager is a Jew who has studied the Bible, the Torah, the Mitzvah, and Rabbinical Law and the relationship between Judaism and Christianity. Apparently, Hebrew, unlike other languages, is virtually unchanged throughout the millennia and the original Commandment in Hebrew is "Lo tirtzach!" which commands us to not MURDER. The Ten Commandments, Killing, and Murder: A Detailed Commentary

Prager is Yeshiva-educated, and not ashamed of it, which is why he oftentimes brings up Jewish views. I've recently started listening to him, and appreciate him a lot.

There are a lot of mistranslations from the Hebrew text, getting an Artscroll Tanach (not a Chumash) can be a tremendous study aid for anybody interested in learning. Just please remember that it has the name of G-d in it, and treat it respectfully (don't take it in the bathroom, keep it off the floor, don't throw it away, etc.).

One of the substantial differences between Judaism and other religions is the lack of a requirement to be a Jew to earn a place in 'the world to come' ('heaven'). Judaism has 613 commandments that apply only to Jews, but only the 7 Noahide Laws apply to non Jews:
The prohibition of idolatry.
The prohibition of murder.
The prohibition of theft.
The prohibition of sexual immorality.
The prohibition of blasphemy.
The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.
You can read more about them here:
Universal Morality - The Seven Noahide Laws - Action
Judaism 101: Jewish Attitudes Toward Non-Jews

Secular morality always loses, for instance, the morally corrupting 'gay culture' and other 'popular culture' aspects promoting promiscuity and abortion as 'superior' to traditional family values is an example.
Another example is the Holocaust, the first victims were the disabled because it was 'moral' to euthanize them...

Eli

 

[jtw2]

I would recommend reading the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It goes through a logical, courtroom type approach that I think you would find interesting and will probably answer a number of your questions.

 

[breakingcontact]

OK, I actually scanned through this entire thread. I was raised secular/'reform' Jewish, and recently completed an orthodox conversion - no easy task!
I get up and pray every morning, afternoon, and night. I wear a kippa (skullcap) nearly always, I wear tzitzit (strings on a 4-cornered garment) the vast majority of the time. I wrap tefillin regularly (you shall bind them...) and eat only kosher food. It isn't easy, and wasn't meant to be.


What were your parents, and where the hell are you from?


I'd agree to that! I started learning a little about Judaism, and here I am today fully orthodox - bordering on 'ultra-orthodox' in many ways.


Prager is Yeshiva-educated, and not ashamed of it, which is why he oftentimes brings up Jewish views. I've recently started listening to him, and appreciate him a lot.

There are a lot of mistranslations from the Hebrew text, getting an Artscroll Tanach (not a Chumash) can be a tremendous study aid for anybody interested in learning. Just please remember that it has the name of G-d in it, and treat it respectfully (don't take it in the bathroom, keep it off the floor, don't throw it away, etc.).

One of the substantial differences between Judaism and other religions is the lack of a requirement to be a Jew to earn a place in 'the world to come' ('heaven'). Judaism has 613 commandments that apply only to Jews, but only the 7 Noahide Laws apply to non Jews:
The prohibition of idolatry.
The prohibition of murder.
The prohibition of theft.
The prohibition of sexual immorality.
The prohibition of blasphemy.
The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.
You can read more about them here:
Universal Morality - The Seven Noahide Laws - Action
Judaism 101: Jewish Attitudes Toward Non-Jews

Secular morality always loses, for instance, the morally corrupting 'gay culture' and other 'popular culture' aspects promoting promiscuity and abortion as 'superior' to traditional family values is an example.
Another example is the Holocaust, the first victims were the disabled because it was 'moral' to euthanize them...

Eli

Thanks for your comments and perspective.

There should be much more unity across faiths in promoting and protecting families and common values.

 

[Sapper740]

A statement like that is the single best reason why I as a non believer am complety ok with those that choose a faith based life. Cause for some folks it is what enables them to achieve that level of I don't know personal enlightenment.
What I question is, well I guess a question of the ages as some one pointed out earlier. Was it really a religion. Was I simply now surrounding yourself with people who were trying to better themselves.
I have a problem with accepting any one religion as the "right" or "correct" religion. If life is a journey then it is only logical to acknowledge that there is more than one path. So on that same mindset isn't it possible to say that any religion or maybe all religions if practiced in their purist and most selfless for a would get you to the same spot and if so wouldn't a religionless life if lived in the same virtuoso and selfless also get you there.


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Yes, just about every religion offers it's adherents life after death, whether it be called Valhalla, Nirvana, Moksha, Paradise, or Heaven depending upon what path you take. For Christians the path is very clear and well defined, we must accept Jesus Christ as our Savior. It is only through Him that we may receive ever-lasting life. Other religions allow different paths to the gift of ever-lasting life....one automatically grants passage to Paradise if you blow up yourself up on a school bus! (I don't recommend that path). The important thing to know, and I believe this is true for almost all religions is that simply leading a good life isn't enough. Christians must accept Jesus. Moslems (other than martyrs) all spend time in Hell while Allah weighs their good deeds against their bad. Hindus and Buddhists achieve Nirvana (Moksha) through devotion and knowledge. The common denominator amongst the world's religions though is adherence to a prescribed set of sacraments, covenants, AND living a virtuous life. Simply living a "virtuous and selfless" life isn't sufficient.

 

[Mexican_Hippie]

Catholic catechism allows for salvation of non-Christians under certain circumstances. I forget the section.

Vatican II clarified this position.

We have some nuanced beliefs regarding purgatory and praying for the dead as well.

I understand Gods love and mercy is infinite, but I wouldn't want to put that to the test by ignoring Him.

 

[TheDan]

Just please remember that it has the name of G-d in it, and treat it respectfully (don't take it in the bathroom, keep it off the floor, don't throw it away, etc.).

Dang... That precludes me from reading it. I do all my serious reading on the toilet!

 

[shortround]

When I look around and behold both the beauty and filth around me, I have to believe in a Divine Creator and an Evil Destroyer.

There must be a God and his Satanic opponent.

For now, my faith is not shaken in a Benevolent God.

I truly believe that good works will do more for you in the afterlife, than any declaration of religious faith.

God will condemn those who use their faith to kill others to eternal damnation.