Calling 911??

[Texan2]

Do not take an adversarial stance with LE.

+1 vital advice

 

[randmplumbingllc]

I know this is going to burst alot of folks bubbles but...Miranda only applies when you are in police custody. There is nothing that requires you to be read your rights unless 2 things occur.
1.)You are arrested or detained.
2.)Police then want to quetion you.

If #1 is not present then there is no requirement for you to be "read your rights"... furthermore the 5th amendment applies to you being on the stand or in police custody and incriminating yourself.
Many recordings of various types are used to incriminate people everyday even though they were not "read their rights".
I could disect this all night, but suffice it to say that 911 tapes are perfectly legal (and should be) for both the defense AND the prosecution.

Since I am not LEO, I will concede and say you are correct. Even more reason to NEVER say ANYTHING to the police without an attorney present.

 

[Texasjack]

OK, I was just browsing through this, but I would like to stop and ask txinvestigator and/or texascop2 what they mean by "adversarial stance with LE".

Information I've seen and heard on this board and in other places indicate that say NOTHING to the police (except ID) without an attorney. Are you suggesting that to be 'adversarial'?

I ask that because it would seem to me that uncooperative could be construed as adversarial.

 

[Bithabus]

If you don't call 911 after a shooting, someone else will.

 

[txinvestigator]

OK, I was just browsing through this, but I would like to stop and ask txinvestigator and/or texascop2 what they mean by "adversarial stance with LE".

Information I've seen and heard on this board and in other places indicate that say NOTHING to the police (except ID) without an attorney. Are you suggesting that to be 'adversarial'?

I ask that because it would seem to me that uncooperative could be construed as adversarial.

Remember this. If you shoot a person you have committed elements of a crime. If he dies you have committed the elements of a more serious crime. In Texas, the use of force statutes are are defense to prosecution. That is not a defense from prosecution. A Defense to prosecution means you have a defense to your otherwise unlawful acts IF you met the justifications laid out in the law.

How are the police going to determine if you met those justifications if you don't talk to them? They are not going to hold off investigating the scene until you are able to get in touch with an attorney and get him on scene. Real life is not like TV where an attorney will be able to respond while the paramedics are still on scene. It could take hours.

If you refuse to give the police the basic facts then they will have no choice but to arrest you and book you. If you can relate the BASIC incident to them they can frmulate a decision to not charge you and simply refer the case to the Grand Jury. This happpens often in Texas because the person acting in sefl defense told the cops what happened.

I am not an attorney, but I have been a cop and I know what has to be done in a homicide investigation. I plan to tell the arriving officers who the suspect is, what he did and that I wil press charges. I will also tell the officers that in training they taught us that after such an event, we will be nervous and upset, and we were told that we should limit our statements until after we have time to calm down and speak to someone who is my advocate. That would be an attorney.

Cops understand that, and that is what THEY have been told to do in a use of deadly force.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[MR Redneck]

The last part make a lot of sence to me. I would expect the cops to at least ask why I had to shoot some SOB.

 

[espnazi]

What I think Clint Smith recommends you say is something along the lines of "I felt my life was in danger,and I want to press charges and have him arrested. I don't have anything else to say until I have my lawyer present".

I believe the thinking behind this is you give the cops a basic idea it was self defense. You say you want to press charges even if you know he is dead since that paints you as the victim (which you are), and secondly paints you as a victim to the jury if you go to trial, since the responding officer will be called as a witness and will tell what you said when he got to the scene.

 

[Texan2]

OK, I was just browsing through this, but I would like to stop and ask txinvestigator and/or texascop2 what they mean by "adversarial stance with LE".

Information I've seen and heard on this board and in other places indicate that say NOTHING to the police (except ID) without an attorney. Are you suggesting that to be 'adversarial'?

I ask that because it would seem to me that uncooperative could be construed as adversarial.

There are those that want to preach to a cop that HE is the guy that pays their salary and knows his rights and he often likes to tell the cops how to do their job.....that type of behavior would be construed as adversarial.

Telling the cops, "this guy pointed a gun at me, I thought he was gonna kill me and/or my kids. Officer, I know you have a job to do here, if you could give me a few minutes to collect my thoughts and talk to my attorney I would appreciate it....thanks."

Most police understand that.

 

[Greg_TX]

If you refuse to give the police the basic facts then they will have no choice but to arrest you and book you. If you can relate the BASIC incident to them they can frmulate a decision to not charge you and simply refer the case to the Grand Jury. This happpens often in Texas because the person acting in sefl defense told the cops what happened.

Hang on a second... Are you referring to the responding officers?

 

[Texan2]

I am guessing he is.....although it could be responding officers or officers who are doing a follow up investigation. Point?

 

[Greg_TX]

I am guessing he is.....although it could be responding officers or officers who are doing a follow up investigation. Point?

The point being that I was unaware that it is the prerogative of the officers on the scene to decide whether you should be charged with a crime. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think that's correct - that's up to the prosecutor, is it not? Couldn't those same officers that you had a nice chat and goodbye with at the time of the event come back sometime later to arrest you if the prosecutor decides charges should be filed? Which side do you think they'll be witnesses for if it gets that far? I think officers should be given answers to questions needed to make sure you're the owner or person in control of the property, and to ensure their safety and the safety of others at the scene. When the words "So, tell me what happened..." come out, it's time to shut up and talk later with a clear mind and a lawyer.

 

[espnazi]

I'm fairly sure the officers on the scene cant charge you, but they can arrest you and then have however it is charge you.

 

[Texan2]

The point being that I was unaware that it is the prerogative of the officers on the scene to decide whether you should be charged with a crime. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think that's correct - that's up to the prosecutor, is it not?

Its not.

Officers at the scene of a crime can arrest and charge you ...

Texas CCP Art. 14.04. WHEN FELONY HAS BEEN COMMITTED. Where it is shown by satisfactory proof to a peace officer, upon the representation of a credible person, that a felony has been committed, and that the offender is about to escape, so that there is no time to procure a warrant, such peace officer may, without warrant, pursue and arrest the accused.

So if a police officer comes around the corner and you are standing there with a smoking gun in your hand and there is a dead guy on the ground in front of you with a smoking bullet hole in him...you may find yourself in handcuffs on the way to jail if you cant explain what happened.

A prosecutor then has the job of filing the criminal charge in court, which is usually the charge that they think they have the best chance of convicting you of.

 

[Greg_TX]

Its not.

Officers at the scene of a crime can arrest and charge you ...

Texas CCP Art. 14.04. WHEN FELONY HAS BEEN COMMITTED. Where it is shown by satisfactory proof to a peace officer, upon the representation of a credible person, that a felony has been committed, and that the offender is about to escape, so that there is no time to procure a warrant, such peace officer may, without warrant, pursue and arrest the accused.

So if a police officer comes around the corner and you are standing there with a smoking gun in your hand and there is a dead guy on the ground in front of you with a smoking bullet hole in him...you may find yourself in handcuffs on the way to jail if you cant explain what happened.

A prosecutor then has the job of filing the criminal charge in court, which is usually the charge that they think they have the best chance of convicting you of.

You're talking about the right to arrest someone, not charge them with a crime. TI's statement...

If you refuse to give the police the basic facts then they will have no choice but to arrest you and book you. If you can relate the BASIC incident to them they can frmulate a decision to not charge you and simply refer the case to the Grand Jury.

... those two sentences together, without qualifying who "they" are in the second sentence implies the officers can do both, which is why I asked for clarification. You might talk your way out of being arrested at the scene, but that's not the end of the process and what you say can matter a great deal if somehow the case ends up in court.

For example, there's a big difference between the homeowner saying "He busted through the door and came toward me - I had to kill him", and saying instead ""He busted through the door and came toward me - I had to stop him". If the suspect dies as a result of your attemps to stop him, so be it, but I don't think you should say you intended to kill him to begin with. It's a distinction the homeowner may not be aware of while they're telling their story at 3:00 am.

 

[Bithabus]

In Texas all felonies are charged with Grand Jury indictment. If you don't want to tell the cops what happened you don't have to, but you might end up spending some time in jail.

The best way to handle it, in my opinion, is to become familiar with the laws before the shooting happens. You can even rehearse in your mind what you will say.

 

[MR Redneck]

In Texas all felonies are charged with Grand Jury indictment. If you don't want to tell the cops what happened you don't have to, but you might end up spending some time in jail.

The best way to handle it, in my opinion, is to become familiar with the laws before the shooting happens. You can even rehearse in your mind what you will say.

Hell, even I think that would be the best option.

 

[Greg_TX]

There are some questions I think you should be prepared to answer; I'm not one of those "I know my rights, I ain't talking to you!" kinda folks, even though I watched both videos.

Questions like:
Where is your weapon?
Who are you?
Do you live here?
Was there anyone else with this person?
Can you give a description of the car?
Is there anyone in the house with you and where are they?

Basically, things they need to know to determine who is who and to make sure everything is secure. If you can give them a description of the vehicle or anyone that got away, then they need your help to find those people. People who know where you live.

But anything beyond that I would prefer to discuss later, when I'm in a more settled frame of mind, with a lawyer. I don't think that's unreasonable or uncooperative.

 

[M. Sage]

Yes, a 911 call will be used against you if they can find a way to do so. It can also be used against you in the civil suit, too. Only give the absolutely necessary information

If you call before shooting:
Someone is trying to break in/hurt you/has broken in (just dial and put the phone down if they've already gained access).
Need the police ASAP.
Where you are.
Describe yourself and tell them that you're armed so they can pass along good guy ID to the police! It would suck to survive against the criminal only to have the cops show up and do his job for him... Don't laugh, it almost happened in CA recently, luckily most cops can't shoot.
That's it.

My plan is at this point in the conversation I'm going to tell the dispatcher I have to stop talking and either set the phone down nearby, stuff it in a pocket or my waistband and concentrate on business at hand. If I have to shoot, the plan is to yell "stop, don't make me do it!" (or similar) before I fire... or even as I fire. This isn't for the BG's benefit - I could care less if he ends up on a slab, and it's probably better if he does. It's for the benefit of any court I might wind up in later. "He gave a warning, but was forced to fire even as he did so" goes a lot better than "he told the dispatcher he had to set the phone down now so he could 'kill this son of a bitch'".

If you have to call after shooting:
Ask for ambulance.
Location.
"I was attacked."
"I'm scared and need an ambulance now, please hurry."
I can't think of anything other than that needs to be said, or should be.

Being chatty on 911 is almost as stupid as being chatty with cops afterward. Being chatty with cops is generally a bad way to retain your freedom, no matter how innocent, right and good you are.

So if a police officer comes around the corner and you are standing there with a smoking gun in your hand and there is a dead guy on the ground in front of you with a smoking bullet hole in him...you may find yourself in handcuffs on the way to jail if you cant explain what happened.=

Are you nuts!? Never try to explain what happened!!!! Everything you say can be used against you, and will if they can find a way to do it!

Only thing you should say if you shoot someone in self defense: "I was in fear for my life! I want to talk to a lawyer!" That's it. I don't care how friendly the officer seems, he isn't.

No offense to you police officers, but I've got to point this out to everybody else. A cop's job isn't to be your buddy. His job is to find a reason to arrest you and build a case to put you into prison. Period. You might think you're helping your cause, but even if you're in the right opening your trap to a cop is just stupid.

I know that you're a cop, and I know you're a gun guy, but if I ever shoot someone in my living room in the middle of the night, I'm not saying anything to you. It's not personal, it's just that I don't like the extremely close company of other men.

It could hurt you if you unlawfully used deadly force.

Not a complete enough statement. It could hurt you even if you used deadly force lawfully. IMO the odds of it "saving" you are far lower.

I also disagree strongly with not taking an adversarial stance with LE. Our system is set up to be adversarial. It's LE and the prosecutor against me in this situation. LE isn't there to be my buddy. How many cases does the state present exonerating evidence in court? Can you say... none!?

After a defensive shooting, the state may move against me, and unfortunately that makes you (in your official capacity, anyway) my enemy. You're goddamn right I'm going to be adversarial with LE, but it wasn't me who started it. Again, it's not personal. I'm not opposing you as a person even though you as an official might be attacking me as a person. I'm opposing your official capacity to find a reason to lock me up for as long as possible.

It's flat out stupid not to treat LE as your opponent, because they are.

Bottom line - keep your mouth shut. Speak to (and through) a lawyer. They're going to figure out what happened without you, and if they manage to get that wrong (it happens), your statements are not, and cannot help or save you.

Let me put it this way. The two officers I quoted above, if they get in a shooting while on duty they typically get 48 hours before having to face any kind of inquiry. They also get provided a lawyer by their union.

No union has my (or your) back at 2 AM in your living room with a badguy splattered all over the floor. The cops sure as shit aren't going to give you two days to cool off before asking you to write up a statement with your lawyer, either. They're going to want it now.

Shut up. Get a lawyer. Police aren't friends.

 

[West Texas]

The number 1 thing NOT to say...

"Geeze Officer, I think I just saw the SOB twitch, mind if I shoot him again with YOUR gun just to see how it handlles?"

 

[Texan2]

You're talking about the right to arrest someone, not charge them with a crime. TI's statement...



... those two sentences together, without qualifying who "they" are in the second sentence implies the officers can do both, which is why I asked for clarification. You might talk your way out of being arrested at the scene, but that's not the end of the process and what you say can matter a great deal if somehow the case ends up in court.

Ok...getting a bit picky on the details but when that officer arrests you, the booking officer at the jail will ask that officer what he is charging you with. You will be magistrated on that charge and have to post bond on that charge.

Ultimately, it will go to a Grand Jury for an indictment.

Remember that only the prosecution presents their side of the case to the Grand Jury, you dont get to be there unless the prosecutor wants you there. When the prosecutor and (typically) the arresting officer present the facts to the Grand Jury, would you like them to be painted like A.) "he was uncooperative and would not tell us where the weapon was, nor would he tell us why he killed the victim"....or....B.) "it was obvious from the first moments officers arrived on scene that this was a case of self defense".

The same incident can be framed either way.