Calling 911??

[Texan2]

Being chatty on 911 is almost as stupid as being chatty with cops afterward. Being chatty with cops is generally a bad way to retain your freedom, no matter how innocent, right and good you are.

Are you nuts!? Never try to explain what happened!!!! Everything you say can be used against you, and will if they can find a way to do it!

Only thing you should say if you shoot someone in self defense: "I was in fear for my life! I want to talk to a lawyer!" That's it. I don't care how friendly the officer seems, he isn't.

No offense to you police officers, but I've got to point this out to everybody else. A cop's job isn't to be your buddy. His job is to find a reason to arrest you and build a case to put you into prison. Period. You might think you're helping your cause, but even if you're in the right opening your trap to a cop is just stupid.

I know that you're a cop, and I know you're a gun guy, but if I ever shoot someone in my living room in the middle of the night, I'm not saying anything to you. It's not personal, it's just that I don't like the extremely close company of other men.

It's flat out stupid not to treat LE as your opponent, because they are.

Shut up. Get a lawyer. Police aren't friends.

Sage, I dont think I have ever taken issue with any of your posts, and I will hand it to you, your gun knowledge is far above and beyond mine but this is the world I live and work in and you are way off on this one.

All of the above underlined statements are PURE opinion. On what planet is it LE's job to "find a reason to arrest you and build a case to put you into prison."?

The job of the police is to find out what happened, sometimes that ends up with you in jail, most times it doesnt.

I have investigated shootings, stabbings and fights with other deadly weapons. In many of these cases, probably better than half, if self defense was claimed, and the evidence fit that claim, no one went to jail except maybe to guy who got shot (after he got out of the hospital).

I can only speak for the officers I know, and I know quite a few. We dont want to put someone in jail that shouldnt be there. We dont try to twist the facts just to put handcuffs on you. We too have families and know what we would do if someone came into our house to rape, rob, or pillage. We dont expect you to do any different and aren't going to "find a reason to arrest you and build a case to put you into prison" when you have not commited a crime.

In fact, I am continually reminding the officers that work under me that this job isnt a competition, you dont get a bonus based on how many people you take to jail. I prefer a quality case over a quantity of cases.

Lawyers give advice that gets them more clients, not neccesarily the advice that is in your best interest.

 

[M. Sage]

Ok...getting a bit picky on the details but when that officer arrests you, the booking officer at the jail will ask that officer what he is charging you with. You will be magistrated on that charge and have to post bond on that charge.

Ultimately, it will go to a Grand Jury for an indictment.

Remember that only the prosecution presents their side of the case to the Grand Jury, you dont get to be there unless the prosecutor wants you there. When the prosecutor and (typically) the arresting officer present the facts to the Grand Jury, would you like them to be painted like A.) "he was uncooperative and would not tell us where the weapon was, nor would he tell us why he killed the victim"....or....B.) "it was obvious from the first moments officers arrived on scene that this was a case of self defense".

The same incident can be framed either way.

The prosecutor isn't there to play softball with me. He's there to find any excuse to put me in the clink. He's not going to explain that I was uber-cooperative and a nice guy. He'll just leave those parts out. He's going to say that I shot someone and present any and all evidence (that you guys have collected) he can use to incriminate me including any and all statements I have made, and then the grand jury will decide if there is enough evidence to send me to trial.

For Christ's sake, quit telling people to talk to cops after shooting someone. Yes, hand over the weapon obviously. But telling your life story is practically suicidal!

 

[Texan2]

He's there to find any excuse to put me in the clink. He's not going to explain that I was uber-cooperative and a nice guy. He'll just leave those parts out. He's going to say that I shot someone and present any and all evidence (that you guys have collected) he can use to incriminate me including any and all statements I have made, and then the grand jury will decide if there is enough evidence to send me to trial.

For Christ's sake, quit telling people to talk to cops after shooting someone. Yes, hand over the weapon obviously. But telling your life story is practically suicidal!

Cops take cases to a Grand Jury regularly to get it No-Billed because we know it was justifiable and want to GJ to see that to. That way no one says "the cops were friends with that guy" and didn't take ot to a GJ.

Prosecutors job is not to put you in the clink if you committed no crime. And I never said tell your life story, just to give the basic facts and not to be adversarial.

 

[M. Sage]

Sage, I dont think I have ever taken issue with any of your posts, and I will hand it to you, your gun knowledge is far above and beyond mine but this is the world I live and work in and you are way off on this one.

All of the above underlined statements are PURE opinion. On what planet is it LE's job to "find a reason to arrest you and build a case to put you into prison."?

The job of the police is to find out what happened, sometimes that ends up with you in jail, most times it doesnt.

I have investigated shootings, stabbings and fights with other deadly weapons. In many of these cases, probably better than half, if self defense was claimed, and the evidence fit that claim, no one went to jail except maybe to guy who got shot (after he got out of the hospital).

I can only speak for the officers I know, and I know quite a few. We dont want to put someone in jail that shouldnt be there. We dont try to twist the facts just to put handcuffs on you. We too have families and know what we would do if someone came into our house to rape, rob, or pillage. We dont expect you to do any different and aren't going to "find a reason to arrest you and build a case to put you into prison" when you have not commited a crime.

In fact, I am continually reminding the officers that work under me that this job isnt a competition, you dont get a bonus based on how many people you take to jail. I prefer a quality case over a quantity of cases.

Lawyers give advice that gets them more clients, not neccesarily the advice that is in your best interest.

This is true. I know you guys don't want to put innocent people in jail. However, your statements can be used for whatever reason to paint you in a bad light and incriminate you even if you've done nothing wrong. Especially since your side will not present the good with the bad. They're only going to present the bad when court's in session. Why? Again, our justice system is adversarial. Sorry, dude. It's you against me once I perforate a badguy. Again, it's not personal and I know you don't have anything against me, but the state (which your official position is party to) is going to try painting me as a murderer and I refuse to help them do so.

Would you please describe for the court the procedure you'll follow if you shoot a suspect? Do you make statements to your fellow officers immediately after the shooting? Do you confer with a lawyer?

As TXInvestigator points out:

Remember this. If you shoot a person you have committed elements of a crime. If he dies you have committed the elements of a more serious crime. In Texas, the use of force statutes are are defense to prosecution. That is not a defense from prosecution. A Defense to prosecution means you have a defense to your otherwise unlawful acts IF you met the justifications laid out in the law.

You have a defense. And you want to blab away to the police who have notebooks, video and audio recorders running. Does this strike you as smart or stupid? You and I both know that a cop doesn't need a video or audio recording because your testimony about events carries the same weight as either in a criminal courtroom. Say what you want about attorneys, but I've had attorneys who are excluded from ever having me as a client (because they're personal friends or work in the wrong area of the law) tell me the same thing time and again.

Shut the hell up.
Lawyer the hell up.

Which you and I know is exactly what you'll do if you ever shoot someone on duty.

Watch this and tell me it's wrong. Then watch part 2 and tell me the police detective is lying. They both agree: don't talk to the cops, even if you're in the right.

"I'm scared and shaken, the gun's over there and I want to talk to a lawyer." What I'm leaving unsaid is that I'm scared of you at this point. And not without reason.

 

[Texan2]

This is true. I know you guys don't want to put innocent people in jail. However, your statements can be used for whatever reason to paint you in a bad light and incriminate you even if you've done nothing wrong.

Would you please describe for the court the procedure you'll follow if you shoot a suspect.

Do you make statements to your fellow officers immediately after the shooting? Do you confer with a lawyer?

As TXInvestigator points out:



You have a defense. And you want to blab away to the police who have notebooks, video and audio recorders running. Does this strike you as smart, or stupid? Say what you want about attorneys, but I've had attorneys who are excluded from ever having me as a client (because they're personal friends or work in the wrong area of the law) tell me the same thing time and again.

Shut the hell up.
Lawyer the hell up.

Which you and I know is exactly what you'll do if you ever shoot someone on duty.

Watch this and tell me it's wrong. Then watch part 2 and tell me the police detective is lying. YouTube - Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1 They both agree: don't talk to the cops, even if you're in the right.

It is a bit different for cops involved in a shooting. We can invoke what is called "Garrity" rule, which allows us to give a statement to the department that cannot be used against us criminally. And yes, we have a lawyer provided to us, usually within an hour or 2.

That having been said, the last few officers (in my area) that shot suspects came in the next day and gave statements to a Texas Ranger who will usually confer with an ADA. When it is obvious that it was justifiable, there is no back room legal wrangling to find a way to make crime out of it. I personally haven't seen this done to civilians who justifiably shot someone either. Perhaps in some other less gun friendly area than mine, but nowhere near me.

So there you have it folks, two different approaches to the same incident...both could get you thrown in jail and both could keep you out.

Good luck.

 

[txinvestigator]

The prosecutor isn't there to play softball with me. He's there to find any excuse to put me in the clink.

No, he is not.

He'll just leave those parts out. He's going to say that I shot someone and present any and all evidence (that you guys have collected) he can use to incriminate me including any and all statements I have made, and then the grand jury will decide if there is enough evidence to send me to trial.

I know a few prosecutors. They often present a case to the grand jury and reccomend a no bill.

For Christ's sake, quit telling people to talk to cops after shooting someone. Yes, hand over the weapon obviously. But telling your life story is practically suicidal!

Non one is suggesting telling your life story. Buy only telling the cops that "I was afraid for my life" and refusing to say anything else is a sure fire way to be meeting with your attorney from jail rather than at his office or your home.

So, for Christs sake, quit telling people not to say anything to the cops after shooting someone.

 

[M. Sage]

No, he is not. I know a few prosecutors. They often present a case to the grand jury and reccomend a no bill.



Non one is suggesting telling your life story. Buy only telling the cops that "I was afraid for my life" and refusing to say anything else is a sure fire way to be meeting with your attorney from jail rather than at his office or your home.

So, for Christs sake, quit telling people not to say anything to the cops after shooting someone.

First: I'd rather talk to a lawyer from jail. A couple days in county is far preferable to half a decade in prison.

Second: Yeah, cause prosecutors care about things other than their win rate. And no, don't talk to the cops without a lawyer. You guys won't even do it, and you've got brass pass going on!

It is a bit different for cops involved in a shooting. We can invoke what is called "Garrity" rule, which allows us to give a statement to the department that cannot be used against us criminally. And yes, we have a lawyer provided to us, usually within an hour or 2.

The above doesn't go for us serfs. This double standard protects you - your statement cannot be used criminally, mine can. You're advocating we talk immediately, I'm saying get a lawyer when you get the same thing I'm suggesting for us serfs... on OUR dime!

How about this? I shoot someone in self defense, you pay for my lawyer for a change? If I could make a statement that couldn't be used in a court, but would help the investigation, then hell yes I'd open my mouth. But I'm not going to accidentally say the wrong thing when I'm stressed, tired and full of adrenaline - or worse, crashing from adrenaline. What the hell happens if I say "So I was sitting there, just had a couple beers and...." Yeah, I really want that on the record when it goes to court. I definitely don't want it on the record when the civil suit hits (don't forget the civil suit!!)

Look, I understand where you're coming from. You're cops, and to you cops are buddies, so you've got no fear talking to them. But to me and the rest of the serfs, cops are someone who will quite gleefully arrest us and do their damnest to see us in prison for a looooong time if we say the wrong thing.

I grew up around cops. My mom was a reserve for years and left under amicable terms (not a bitter parting with the dept.) Cops are good people. However, I can't trust you guys when it comes to my safety or freedom. We're not always going to be on the same side of those issues because of the way your job is done. I actually had cops come right out and tell me not to trust other cops, that's where I get this stuff. I know what goes on out there, I know what you do, and I know the things you say. I can't even tell you how many times I've had cops tell me bald-faced lies during interactions because they were looking for an excuse to arrest me and help prosecute me when I'd done nothing wrong. I'd trust the badge if it hadn't shown me time and again over the years that it exists to find an excuse to put me in prison.

Realize too that I'm coming from several years of living in California. You know that "jack-booted thug" insult that gets thrown around? The cops in CA earn it every day. They are bad out there.

 

[West Texas]

I'm sitting here reading the exchange between TxCop, M.Sage and TxInvestigator and can see all side are coming from...been there, thanks.

The fact is LEO have a job to do...and there are those officers who have the attitude of "I'm the LAW and you are SCUM because you are not"...and then there are those officers who are great guys who take the job of "protect and serve" very seriously and want to do the right thing.

The first one will take ANYTHING you say and make it fit what HE wants it to fit, regardless of facts. If it's his own mother and she shot a guy for no reason, he will do everything he can to make sure she walks...if it is a guy he decided as soon as he saw them that he didn't like, you are going to jail and you will be facing charges.

So how do you KNOW which officer showed up at the scene after you just shot this gang banger that was in your home shooting at you? You don't. But because there ARE those guys out there, they have made it VERY hard for the GOOD OFFICERS to earn the trust of the public and to do their job to HELP THEM...and made it VERY HARD for the public to trust ANY officer that shows up.

There are VERY few people that have not had SOME KIND of contact with the first officer type, and it RUINS it for the good officers...

 

[Texan2]

I agree WT....
And I also understand that if your perception of police comes from your experiences in California, there may be some issues. I am basing my statements on Texas...South Texas specifically.
Talk...dont talk...I really couldn't care less. I just dont want the public thinking that cops and prosecutors go around trying to dream up ways to put honest hard working folk in prison.
In the world I live in everyday, the cops I know will sneak a little grin when they see some POS (that they ahve already arrested 6 or 7 times in many cases) shot during a home invasion. We would usually give the homeowner a "high five" if we could.

 

[West Texas]

I agree WT....
And I also understand that if your perception of police comes from your experiences in California, there may be some issues. I am basing my statements on Texas...South Texas specifically.
Talk...dont talk...I really couldn't care less. I just dont want the public thinking that cops and prosecutors go around trying to dream up ways to put honest hard working folk in prison.
In the world I live in everyday, the cops I know will sneak a little grin when they see some POS (that they ahve already arrested 6 or 7 times in many cases) shot during a home invasion. We would usually give the homeowner a "high five" if we could.

You're one of the good ones...as are the guys who work with you...I'd have no problem telling you why I ventalated the poor SOB who really needed it.

But there are other departments in other areas...and the mistrust has already been bred....so how do WE as the GOOD GUYS help do that?

Shouldn't the CHL give SOME clue that you're a good guy?

 

[mtaylor]

The best way to handle it, in my opinion, is to become familiar with the laws before the shooting happens. You can even rehearse in your mind what you will say.

Agreed, and I will add one more.... be familiar with an attorney before the shooting happens. Preferably right after you obtain your CHL.

At the risk of advertising for someone else... I have a prepaid legal type of plan designed for CHL holders. It's well worth the money, if you ever have to pull the trigger. Provides a carry card with numbers, 24hour service, and representation as required. Google search ought to turn up a few...

 

[Greg_TX]

Shouldn't the CHL give SOME clue that you're a good guy?

Well, it ought to at least tell them that you passed a state and federal criminal background check to get the license in the first place.

 

[West Texas]

One VERY important lesson I have learned in business is that once you get lawyers involved, NO ONE WINS BUT THEM.

However, when faced with this particular situation, should the officer not appear to be interested in hearing the truth of what happened, I would probably state something like "I'm the victim here, this guy came in to my home and threatened me and my family and I took action to protect us all. Everything I have done has been with in my rights, but I feel that you are not interested in hearing the truth but in trying to make this horrible tradgedy worse than it already is. Do I need to call an attorney?"

A VERY important item to have in a situation like this is a DIGITAL RECORDER. Should I ever find myself in this situation, it would be in my hand and recording everything once the police arrive on the scene. With this in YOUR pocession there can never be ANY question of who said what when where and why.

 

[MR Redneck]

One VERY important lesson I have learned in business is that once you get lawyers involved, NO ONE WINS BUT THEM.

However, when faced with this particular situation, should the officer not appear to be interested in hearing the truth of what happened, I would probably state something like "I'm the victim here, this guy came in to my home and threatened me and my family and I took action to protect us all. Everything I have done has been with in my rights, but I feel that you are not interested in hearing the truth but in trying to make this horrible tradgedy worse than it already is. Do I need to call an attorney?"

A VERY important item to have in a situation like this is a DIGITAL RECORDER. Should I ever find myself in this situation, it would be in my hand and recording everything once the police arrive on the scene. With this in YOUR pocession there can never be ANY question of who said what when where and why.

I have one of those somewhere.

 

[Texan2]

You're one of the good ones...as are the guys who work with you...I'd have no problem telling you why I ventalated the poor SOB who really needed it.

But there are other departments in other areas...and the mistrust has already been bred....so how do WE as the GOOD GUYS help do that?

Shouldn't the CHL give SOME clue that you're a good guy?

With many LEOs your CHL goes a long way..not to say there arent other good honest folk who dont have one. I tend to size up the situation in the first few minutes on scene. What is the homeowner telling me? Does it match what I am seeing? If "Joe Thug" who it tattooed over 93% of his body is crumpled in the master bedroom with a ski mask on and a gun in his belt...along with a bog of tools used to break in...well, why would I doubt that it was self defense?

Everyone has a story, everyone has recieved some advice. I try to treat people the way I want my family treated. Seems to have worked out well for me so far.

 

[randmplumbingllc]

Talk...dont talk...I really couldn't care less. I just dont want the public thinking that cops and prosecutors go around trying to dream up ways to put honest hard working folk in prison.

In the world I live in everyday, the cops I know will sneak a little grin when they see some POS (that they ahve already arrested 6 or 7 times in many cases) shot during a home invasion. We would usually give the homeowner a "high five" if we could.

I am sure that MOST police and LEO don't go around "trying to dream up ways to put hard working folk in prison". The problem is that in the heat of the moment, you might say a word or phrase or something that LEO's might HAVE to write in a report. As you know, this WILL be use against you. You are better off calming down, siting down with a lawyer, collecting your thoughts and making a well worded statement.

No one (or at least I) is saying to hinder or in some way not cooperate with LEO's. If you have ever have had to shoot someone, you know that you are all wound up anyway. It is very easy to word something in a way that could be very bad for you. Probably not a bad thing to sit in a interview room or holding cell for a few hours and collect your thoughts.

You are right, I know many LEO's that feel the same way about someone shooting a POS that they can't seem to keep in jail.

I have watched as POS's that are arrested for slinging dope are out slinging more dope the very next day. I do feel the pain of LEO's.

Just remember when you are out there, that some of us are good guy's too. We just have to be very careful not to put our foot in our mouth. It is not to be combative or make your job harder, it is just to be able to tell the truth, using the correct words.

 

[Texan2]

Just remember when you are out there, that some of us are good guy's too.

We know that and are grateful for the decent folks....

 

[M. Sage]

One VERY important lesson I have learned in business is that once you get lawyers involved, NO ONE WINS BUT THEM.

However, when faced with this particular situation, should the officer not appear to be interested in hearing the truth of what happened, I would probably state something like "I'm the victim here, this guy came in to my home and threatened me and my family and I took action to protect us all. Everything I have done has been with in my rights, but I feel that you are not interested in hearing the truth but in trying to make this horrible tradgedy worse than it already is. Do I need to call an attorney?"

A VERY important item to have in a situation like this is a DIGITAL RECORDER. Should I ever find myself in this situation, it would be in my hand and recording everything once the police arrive on the scene. With this in YOUR pocession there can never be ANY question of who said what when where and why.

It's very hard to tell a good one from a bad one until it's too late. A bad one will pretend to be a good one unfortunately.

I am sure that MOST police and LEO don't go around "trying to dream up ways to put hard working folk in prison". The problem is that in the heat of the moment, you might say a word or phrase or something that LEO's might HAVE to write in a report. As you know, this WILL be use against you. You are better off calming down, siting down with a lawyer, collecting your thoughts and making a well worded statement.

No one (or at least I) is saying to hinder or in some way not cooperate with LEO's. If you have ever have had to shoot someone, you know that you are all wound up anyway. It is very easy to word something in a way that could be very bad for you. Probably not a bad thing to sit in a interview room or holding cell for a few hours and collect your thoughts.

You are right, I know many LEO's that feel the same way about someone shooting a POS that they can't seem to keep in jail.

I have watched as POS's that are arrested for slinging dope are out slinging more dope the very next day. I do feel the pain of LEO's.

Just remember when you are out there, that some of us are good guy's too. We just have to be very careful not to put our foot in our mouth. It is not to be combative or make your job harder, it is just to be able to tell the truth, using the correct words.

This. Exactly this.

Also, I know that you guys see the 5th save real criminals almost daily, but you have to remember why it was put in the Constitution. It's not there to protect the guilty. It's there to protect the innocent.

I'd love to hear of a single time that a person exercising his 5A rights has been bit in the ass by it.

 

[Texan2]

I have no issues with anyone invoking their 5th amendment right, even the bad guys. I understand why it was put in the constitution. I also understand why some may have the perspective they have.

Hopefully everyone will have the opportunity to have a good LEO experience and know that not all people in the criminal justice field are out to lock people up regardless of their guilt or innocence.

If you have encountered an asshole cop, then on behalf of those in our field, I sincerely apologize.

 

[Texasjack]

OK. I'm sorta impressed by the storm kicked up here! Really, some very good points have been raised. There is no textbook way to handle this stuff because every shooting is unique and, yes, sometimes the folks involved (even LEOs) will take things differently.

I filled out a witness statement once (for a B&E) and the cop asked me if I was a former LEO. Why? Because I filled it out like "Joe Friday" (i.e., just the facts). It strikes me as good advice to give the responders that type of information - basic facts, no opinions (except to say that you thought you were in danger). Anything beyond that requires my attorney to be involved. And - absolutely - no giving the cops grief, telling them how to do their job, telling them you know more than them, etc. Don't get 'chatty' at any time or risk having something twisted against you.

I know there were some fairly strong opinions given, but I don't think any of you were really that far apart on those opinions. Each gave solid reasons for what they said and fairly presented their perspectives - and without getting out of line. I wish more of the serious discussions on here were in the same vein.