Concealed Draw (Without one in the Chamber and with on in the chamber)

[coboblack]

Carrying a CCW without a round in the chamber is like saying "I'll put my seat belt on when I see the semi run the red light". You never know when you are going to have to draw your weapon and use it if you have it on you it needs to be ready to go. There is nothing that says you will be on your feet when the attack comes you may be seated or attacked from behinde the idea of trying to make ready while the attack is taking place sounds like a good way to make a bad day worse.

Just my opinion

really good points, thanks. Nice analogy with seat beat. I lol'd

 

[coboblack]

If you are in a true life and death situation you will likely not have the mental ability to remember to chamber a round- all of your focus will be on the life/death situation. Even if you do, your fine motor skills are going to go to shit as a result of an extremely likely adrenaline dump. Yeah, you can chamber a round in the comfort and security of your own home by yourself. Try doing it while someone is slashing you to ribbons, you get a different result, which bring me to my net point:

You may not be physically capable of chambering the round. Any number of factors in a deadly encounter can take a limb out of the fight. Broken bones, lacerations, punctures... whatever. You may have to go into a fight already disabled. For this reason it is advised by most to ditch the "Leave it unchambered" Hollywood nonsense. It is also recommended you learn how to operate you gun one handed, AND with your weak hand. Do you know the different ways to clear a jam with one hand? Like using the back of your shoe or belt to pull the slide back? If not, do so.

Your thinking on the subject is very good but a little misguided. I think your jujitsu training is helping you as much as hindering you. Helping you in that you are adept at analyzing a situation and easily being able to figure out how to get the most out it, but hindering in making several complicated moves seem like they are easy to master as long as you repeat them thousands of times. Yes, you can test your new moves out on buddies, but not on ones who actually want to hurt you. The dojo only goes so far. As much as I love martial arts, I'll be the first to admit from experience that the real world is not as kind as a sparring partner and those moves never work as well in a real fight (although they definitely give an advantage). And a street scuffle isn't nearly as mentally and physically difficult as a situation requiring deadly force.

Your analysis of adding steps is a little backwards. Adding a step here or there isn't a small deal. When seconds matter do you want more or less steps before that gun is in your hand?

Studies of gun fights have shown that oftentimes people do not revert to training, but to instinct. The odds are very good that in such a situation you mind and fine motor skills are just going to go to shit. Accept it and plan around it. With guns it's best just to follow the KISS principle. Keep it chambered. Your finger is the safety. Your gun will not go off by itself; it needs force moving against the trigger. Remember that and you will be fine (and it is a lot easier to remember than all of the chambering crap).

Some good points, thanks for takin the time to give your input. I'll respond to a few things when I'm around a computer.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Guys, lets not resort to personal attacks please.

Beware of paralysis by analysis. Sometimes it can be beneficial to analyze things in detail. It can give a person a better understanding of what's going on, where they are trying to get to, and what it's going to take to accomplish that. The flip side of it is, sometimes this also makes things considerably more complicated than they need to be, and can sometimes hamper progress or at least make it much slower to progress. I speak from experience. I'm generally extremely analytical. When it comes to things like drawstroke, grip, stance, etc. I have wasted countless thousands of man hours thinking about and analyzing this stuff.....all to come to the realization that there are very simple answers to most of these problems. Much of that was probably totally unnecessary, or at the least less effective than spending that time on other efforts that may have produced more results in the same period of time. At the end of the day, sometimes it's best to just let the analysis go and SHOOT the gun.

Here's a golden nugget example paraphrased from Rob Leatham. What is the fastest way to get to the gun and draw? "Drop your hand to the gun." Here's another one. What's the ideal drawstroke? "Holstering the gun in reverse" (think about that one for awhile). In both examples, a very simple answer to the problem. The answers are profound if you analyze them in detail, but regardless they are accurate and a person can put them into practice without spending years analyzing them. If either of those don't make sense, let me know and I'll explain in a bit more detail.

 

[coboblack]

Guys, lets not resort to personal attacks please.

Beware of paralysis by analysis. Sometimes it can be beneficial to analyze things in detail. It can give a person a better understanding of what's going on, where they are trying to get to, and what it's going to take to accomplish that. The flip side of it is, sometimes this also makes things considerably more complicated than they need to be, and can sometimes hamper progress or at least make it much slower to progress. I speak from experience. I'm generally extremely analytical. When it comes to things like drawstroke, grip, stance, etc. I have wasted countless thousands of man hours thinking about and analyzing this stuff.....all to come to the realization that there are very simple answers to most of these problems. Much of that was probably totally unnecessary, or at the least less effective than spending that time on other efforts that may have produced more results in the same period of time. At the end of the day, sometimes it's best to just let the analysis go and SHOOT the gun.

Here's a golden nugget example paraphrased from Rob Leatham. What is the fastest way to get to the gun and draw? "Drop your hand to the gun." Here's another one. What's the ideal drawstroke? "Holstering the gun in reverse" (think about that one for awhile). In both examples, a very simple answer to the problem. The answers are profound if you analyze them in detail, but regardless they are accurate and a person can put them into practice without spending years analyzing them. If either of those don't make sense, let me know and I'll explain in a bit more detail.

Can you go into more detail about the draw stroke in reverse. I think I made sense of it but would like to hear more

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Can you go into more detail about the draw stroke in reverse. I think I made sense of it but would like to hear more

The general theme behind all of these things is eliminating excessive waste movements. For the drawstroke, ideally, you want to come straight up out of the holster and go straight to the target without bringing the gun on target in an upward or downward arc. Reholstering, ideally, is the same thing; coming straight back towards the "compressed ready" position then going straight to the holster (although ideally in one smooth movement as if there are no "steps"). Straight up, straight out. It's the easiest, most accurate, and most consistent way to do it.

An example of excessive waste movements is people's first step in the drawstroke. It's easy to be extremely tense and trying to go as fast as possible. What this usually results in is people having excessive arm movement getting their hand to the gun, slamming the web of their hand in to the top of the grip/beavertail extremely hard (often people do this to the point that the gun and holster are noticeably forced downward on the belt), then yanking straight up extremely hard until they can't bring the gun straight up anymore, then thrusting the gun out extremely hard. Tension is the enemy of speed.

Next time you draw, try this. Try to relax as much as possible, forget about speed for a minute, and just focus on doing this smoothly. I find it's easier for this to make sense if you start in the "fence" position or a guarded position (basically both hands up in front of your face, arms are usually ~45 degrees from your body). From there, just simply bring your elbow down and back and drop your hand to the gun, then establish your grip on the gun. Simultaneously, your support hand should be coming back to your chest like normal. Try doing that several times, and get a feel for how you're just very casually and smoothly dropping your hand to the gun without thrusting it. A lot of this is due to the fact that your arm is now moving in a straight line to the gun. Many people, with their normal fast but tense drawstroke are actually raising their primary arm and hand up and then forcing it down on top of the gun. That's one more step in the draw, and one more waste movement with wasted time. Doesn't seem like much, but those are the things, combined with others, that turn a 1.5sec draw from concealment in to a 2.0sec draw. May not seem like much, but several tenths of a second is several more shots you can be firing on target. Here's the best example I could find on short notice:



(about 1:45 there are several draws starting from a similar position, except it's the surrender position instead of a guard position)

 

[pvtsnowball82]

If you want to see Travis practicing what he preaches, check out the videos on my YouTube channel (pvtsnowball82). He's pretty damn fast on the draw.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

If you want to see Travis practicing what he preaches, check out the videos on my YouTube channel (pvtsnowball82). He's pretty damn fast on the draw.

Sad thing is, I'm not even that fast. I can pretty consistently hang around 1.5sec from a concealed draw to first shot in the A zone out to ~10yds, but some people are much faster. Open with no concealment, there are plenty of people pushing the same in 1.0-1.3sec, some even ~.8-.9sec for some seriously good shooters. Now THAT's impressive! The most impressive thing is consistency of accuracy, on demand, at those speeds. Anyone can go fast. Seriously, it's not that hard for the average person to start turning out times like that, but having the consistency to put those shots exactly where you want them at those speeds is a whole other deal entirely.

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Here's an excellent example of why I personally feel that carrying a gun at it's maximum state of readiness is incredibly important:

ECQC Multiple Attacker Dynamics II - YouTube

It's also another example of why I am OCD about doing a mag check and chamber check every single time I put my gun on. There's been a couple times that I haven't, and when I have at random after I got home from being out and about all day, or out of town...I found out I never had a round chambered. The real world sucks. Getting in a defensive situation, you're probably already behind the curve and at a disadvantage. Things can go bad quick, and you may not have time or opportunity to operate that gun with both hands. It's also one of the reasons I have trained a lot with retention fire, and put a decent amount of emphasis on that with students.

 

[TXDARKHORSE361]

I'm really enjoying all the discussion in this thread, I finally got around to taking a CHL class, the instructor was very opinionated but a good instructor. He advocated carrying without one in the chamber and the first thing that popped into my head was the seatbelt analogy. I say to each their own and I won't talk you out of your decision but it is great hearing others stance on the matter.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Here's an excellent example of why I personally feel that carrying a gun at it's maximum state of readiness is incredibly important:

ECQC Multiple Attacker Dynamics II - YouTube

It's also another example of why I am OCD about doing a mag check and chamber check every single time I put my gun on. There's been a couple times that I haven't, and when I have at random after I got home from being out and about all day, or out of town...I found out I never had a round chambered. The real world sucks. Getting in a defensive situation, you're probably already behind the curve and at a disadvantage. Things can go bad quick, and you may not have time or opportunity to operate that gun with both hands. It's also one of the reasons I have trained a lot with retention fire, and put a decent amount of emphasis on that with students.

I am curious, does this mean you unload your carry gun when you get home?
What other reason would there be for a round not to be chambered?

 

[SIG_Fiend]

I am curious, does this mean you unload your carry gun when you get home?
What other reason would there be for a round not to be chambered?

No. It stays loaded. It just goes from holster to holster depending on where I'm at. At home, goes in the holster on my bedroom night stand. Sometimes, if there has been a bit of commotion in the neighborhood and our dog is acting unusual and freaked out, I may move that holster to the kitchen/living room so it's nearby, and then at bed time it goes back to the night stand.

No reason, save for the fact that it takes all of 2 seconds to do a mag check and chamber check, and I then know for a fact everything is ready to go at that point in time. Always know the status of your gun at all times. If I get lazy, maybe I might forget something. Maybe I might forget I had just been cleaning the gun the night before and never loaded it again. Maybe I might forget I just put a mag back in it but never chambered a round. Point being, if every time you put that gun on you do those two simple checks, it completely eliminates the problem. Now, even when I get lazy, I'm still going through the motions with those two steps as part of my admin load process, and I'll still catch it even if I forgot something like the scenario above. It's easy.

In IDPA, one of the biggest problems I see people have is they do not have a solid "admin load" process. They'll throw their mag in the gun and holster while forgetting to chamber check or even rack the slide. They'll throw the mag in the gun, rack the slide, and then re-holster without checking the chamber. It's simple stuff that takes all of a second, and it ensures that you always know the status of your gun. A lot of times those people start out a stage with a click instead of a bang, with having to perform a malfunction drill off the bat. I've done it myself several times when I've gotten lazy in the past. That's all well and good, it's competition, it's not the real deal, but it should be a learning experience that influences what we do. What about when it's something like the ECQC video above, but for real? I forget the general statistics on how often defensive shootings occur inside 7yds and inside 3yds, but it is significant. Also, according to the FBI, IIRC, I think it was either ~25% or 33% or somewhere right around there that 2 or more attackers are typically involved in defensive situations. It's not hard to see how omitting two simple steps can go real wrong real fast.

Why stack the cards against one's self when you can simply train to proper trigger finger index (it's not that hard, honestly), and train to ensuring your gun is as ready to go as possible? We drive cars every day. We operate computers with complex software. We use smart phones packed with more technology than the space shuttle had just a few years ago. I don't know what it is about firearms, but people treat this stuff like it's some black art that is mystical and/or difficult. Handguns (and all guns for that matter) are simple machines. There's no reason we should let them dominate us when just a bit of attention to detail will do the trick.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Just re-read your post & saw answer to my question.

 

[London]

coboblack -

You are a martial artist. Have you read The Tao of Jeet Kune Do? Yeah, I know it's about unarmed combat, but a lot of it applies to gun fighting as well, strange as it sounds (especially the "Economy of motion" principles.) I studied it before ever getting into guns and it was very natural taking those principles and applying them to gun handling. I even noticed the concepts popping up in Rob Pincus' DVDs and asked him on Facebook if he was a Lee fan? Guess what? He said TJKD was a great influence on his shooting practices!

Just something to check out if you're interested. I think you would enjoy studying the parallels. Don't be put off by Lee's Hollywood chop-sockey flash; in real life he was an excellent martial artists teacher and student.

 

[London]

Guys, lets not resort to personal attacks please.

Not sure if this is directed at me or not, but if I came across as hostile then I apologize. That was certainly not what I was going for!

 

[scap99]

coboblack -

You are a martial artist. Have you read The Tao of Jeet Kune Do? Yeah, I know it's about unarmed combat, but a lot of it applies to gun fighting as well, strange as it sounds (especially the "Economy of motion" principles.) I studied it before ever getting into guns and it was very natural taking those principles and applying them to gun handling. I even noticed the concepts popping up in Rob Pincus' DVDs and asked him on Facebook if he was a Lee fan? Guess what? He said TJKD was a great influence on his shooting practices!

Just something to check out if you're interested. I think you would enjoy studying the parallels. Don't be put off by Lee's Hollywood chop-sockey flash; in real life he was an excellent martial artists teacher and student.

Brian Enos references Lee's book, as well, on his own book.


Sent from me.

 

[Fox]

This is like the .45 vs 9mm debates. (More stopping power, more bullets) It comes down to personal preference. For the first month I carried with an empty chamber. Then I got used to it and carry with one in the chamber all of the time. Plus I dont have any kids around to worry about so I can leave it racked all the time. Every ones situation is different.

 

[pvtsnowball82]

I absolutely disagree, Fox. This is not like the 9mm vs. .45 debate, because in this debate one of the options has no tactical benefit whatsoever.

Whereas 9mm has the benefit of greater firepower (more bullets) and .45 has the benefit of putting more lead in the target per round, carrying with an empty chamber has no benefit except the imagined benefit of increased safety *when the gun is not in use.* In my mind, it's akin to carrying a blade with no edge. You can't cut yourself on accident with it, but what good is it?

 

[majormadmax]

I absolutely disagree, Fox. This is not like the 9mm vs. .45 debate, because in this debate one of the options has no tactical benefit whatsoever.

Whereas 9mm has the benefit of greater firepower (more bullets) and .45 has the benefit of putting more lead in the target per round, carrying with an empty chamber has no benefit except the imagined benefit of increased safety *when the gun is not in use.* In my mind, it's akin to carrying a blade with no edge. You can't cut yourself on accident with it, but what good is it?

Agreed.

 

[newshooter1970]

Not sure if this will help someone with this question...For the first month of having my CHL, I carried my Smith M&P un-chambered in my holster. Each morning during this period, I made sure that the slide was racked and ready to fire, except no bullet in chamber. Every night when I was done for the day, I removed the magazine, did a press check to make sure no round in chamber, then I pulled the trigger to verify it was still cocked. My theory was that if it clicked, then I know that nothing I did that day activated the trigger. If it did not click, then the trigger was activated, and thank goodness it was not chambered. During that period of normal activities with family around (young kids and pets), I never had an unexpected trigger action. My conclusion is that carrying chambered with a good holster is safe for me. During this time, I became very comfortable with my rig also.

 

[Gramps]

Good information NewShooter, thanks for sharing. Very good practice to familiarize and understand how safe a good holster is.