Hilton Yam on the 1911

[NOLA Jack]

My Personal Path Away From The 1911 | Modern Service Weapons

My Personal Path Away From The 1911
BY Hilton Yam | Posted on 03/03/2014 by Hilton Yam | IN


10-8 Performance
1911
Modern Service Pistols


It has been noted more than once that lately there seem to have been many MSW articles recommending against the use of the 1911 as a service pistol. This is not really a new trend, and even since the days of the 10-8 Forums we have always cautioned folks that the 1911 is not for the casual user.


Starting with IPSC back in the 80′s, I traveled a long road of being a devoted user of the 1911 in both competition and duty applications, a builder of custom 1911s, and a designer of 1911 components. The last 15 years or so had seen the 1911 absolutely dominate my existence, and everything I did seemed to revolve around the gun. With all this devotion to the 1911, it is even more telling then why I went away from it....

 

[robertc1024]

Uh Oh - here we go.

 

[jrbfishn]

Ahhh,,,,,, naw, dont think so


Sent by a idjit coffeeholic

 

[SIG_Fiend]

I edited the post. Please, if an article or blog post is quoted, just quote a small amount of the text and provide a link so that it's properly attributed to the site where it originated.

I bet Hilton's blog post will upset a few people here.

 

[Mikewood]

Lol, it's a gun.
Do you think a samurai has to have a katana? Path away from a 1911 indeed...

 

[NOLA Jack]

I edited the post. Please, if an article or blog post is quoted, just quote a small amount of the text and provide a link so that it's properly attributed to the site where it originated.

I bet Hilton's blog post will upset a few people here.

Sorry about that, will do.

I can't think of a more credible name in the 1911 shooting community, hearing it from him is pretty surprising on one hand and not surprising on the other. It is surprising that he has changed his mind about something he has spent about three decades working with, but it is not surprising in that nobody should know the inherent flaws that come with selecting a 1911 better than him.

He has other good comments below the article that are worth reading.

My Personal Path Away From The 1911 | Modern Service Weapons

 

[NOLA Jack]

Lol, it's a gun.
Do you think a samurai has to have a katana? Path away from a 1911 indeed...

No, but if a well known samurai and long time trainer of other samurais said "We need to get on board with this firearm thing"...

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Sorry about that, will do.

I can't think of a more credible name in the 1911 shooting community, hearing it from him is pretty surprising on one hand and not surprising on the other. It is surprising that he has changed his mind about something he has spent about three decades working with, but it is not surprising in that nobody should know the inherent flaws that come with selecting a 1911 better than him.

He has other good comments below the article that are worth reading.

My Personal Path Away From The 1911 | Modern Service Weapons

^ That's a very good and logical assessment.

There are a number of others in the industry that have significant history with the platform in both a builder sense as well as the actual application and duty usage. Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Dean Caputo, and countless others. They pretty much all seem to be of similar opinions, and understandably so. It still amazes me that anyone argues with several million rounds, decades of experience, operational experience with the platform in combat/duty usage, as well as experience across probably thousands of individual guns.

This is not to say the platform is horrible. His analogy of a muscle car is a perfect example. While it has many attractive elements to it, and the nostalgia factor is second to none (every enthusiast has to appreciate the platform), in this modern day and age there are simply easier and more efficient ways for many of the uses discussed (hard use, duty, concealed carry, etc).

Put another way, a quote I saw from Larry Vickers: "The 1911. AKA All that trouble for 7 rounds!" LOL

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

I aint giving mine up. Cold dead hands and all

 

[TAVM]

The 1911 requires more maintenance and knowledge to shoot reliably. Most LEO's don't know how to maintain their guns. They're not shooters or enthusiasts and regular folks who get 1911's probably never make it out if their break in period either.

Nevermind the fact that the 1911's are more accurate, better looking, and double as a bludgeon device.

On the other hand, you have glocks/m&p and the like. They're reliable and quite durable. They're not the most accurate or even standout for anything but their reliability. They're what I call idiot proof firearms. Well...idiot proof with regard to maintenance. You still have more idiots who shoot themselves with accidental discharges more with these platforms. That said, I still prefer the glock 19 over the rest of the plastics.

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

Sides its impolite to pistol whip some one with plastic

 

[atticus finch]

I read the article & I won't say he's full of it or anything like that. I don't agree with it as my own 1911 has been anvil reliable for 25+ years. Only thing is, mine is basically stock. I was told very simply. "If you modify it away from it's original design, then you've changed it to something different and that is going to create changes you didn't anticipate, meaning potential problems"
I don't run hollow-points, never tried to tweak the feed ramp or anything. Just regular ball ammo, never fails to feed. Std stamped mags work fine in it.

 

[Moonpie]

Keeping mine.
Just a note here: How many gun makers build Glocks or XD's or 92's?
how many gun makers turn out 1911's?
Somebody out there likes 1911's.

 

[NOLA Jack]

The 1911 requires more maintenance and knowledge to shoot reliably. Most LEO's don't know how to maintain their guns. They're not shooters or enthusiasts and regular folks who get 1911's probably never make it out if their break in period either.

Nevermind the fact that the 1911's are more accurate, better looking, and double as a bludgeon device.

On the other hand, you have glocks/m&p and the like. They're reliable and quite durable. They're not the most accurate or even standout for anything but their reliability. They're what I call idiot proof firearms. Well...idiot proof with regard to maintenance. You still have more idiots who shoot themselves with accidental discharges more with these platforms. That said, I still prefer the glock 19 over the rest of the plastics.

I'm not sure if I agree with that. I would be willing to bet that most glock 21 pistols are putting out groups that would stack up well against any 1911(examples below). I think that the perception that a 1911 is more accurate than a glock isn't based on the accuracy of the pistol, but the ease in a shooter achieving that accuracy. The 1911 trigger is the most obvious example of this.

In terms of plastic wonders standing out, reliability is one place, but it is hard to overlook capacity.

Gen3 & Gen4 Dark Earth Glocks, Including the New Gen4 Model 21, Now Available Exclusively from Lipsey’s

Best Loads for Glock 21 SF .45ACP | Tactical Life

November, 97 Wide Body

 

[NOLA Jack]

Keeping mine.
Just a note here: How many gun makers build Glocks or XD's or 92's?
how many gun makers turn out 1911's?
Somebody out there likes 1911's.

The number of 1911 makers is a semi-valid point. There can be no doubt that certain manufacturers use lower quality parts and have issues with machining and labor. However, I disagree with anyone dismissing universal reliability issues of the 1911 based on there being many makers.

You are 10000000% correct that 1911s are in demand and that people like them. They are a great price of American history, a revolutionary design, and an awesome range gun. Fortunately, or unfortunately, that demand will continue to cause there to be an abundance of manufacturers of varying quality trying to suit a market with varying budgets.

 

[NOLA Jack]

^ That's a very good and logical assessment.

There are a number of others in the industry that have significant history with the platform in both a builder sense as well as the actual application and duty usage. Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Dean Caputo, and countless others. They pretty much all seem to be of similar opinions, and understandably so. It still amazes me that anyone argues with several million rounds, decades of experience, operational experience with the platform in combat/duty usage, as well as experience across probably thousands of individual guns.

This is not to say the platform is horrible. His analogy of a muscle car is a perfect example. While it has many attractive elements to it, and the nostalgia factor is second to none (every enthusiast has to appreciate the platform), in this modern day and age there are simply easier and more efficient ways for many of the uses discussed (hard use, duty, concealed carry, etc).

Put another way, a quote I saw from Larry Vickers: "The 1911. AKA All that trouble for 7 rounds!" LOL

Yeah, I don't think any of the old CAG guys shoot them anymore. The platform is great when you look at it for what it is. A design that predates any of us here by a wide margin and was arguably the best pistol out there for over eighty years. It is still a great pistol for the range and competition, I just don't consider it a great service weapon.

 

[qwiksdraw]

It does not come as a surprise to me that we have seen advancements in design (learned from the 1911), materials and production not available a hundred years ago that offer new types guns that could not have been made when the 1911 was first introduced. Nor am I offended that these new guns afford improved capabilities over the 1911. Come to think of, I would hope the industry has and will continue to advance and improve their products. Some attempts will fail and some will succeed. Ultimately the consumer wins.

And yet in spite of all these advancements, the 1911 is still my favorite gun to shoot over the "modern" designs I own.

Mr. Yam is overwhelmed by numbers and not percentages. Since he seems to have been someone who is or was a 1911 expert, then everyone with a broken 1911 wants him to solve their problem. But those asking him for help represent a very small percentage of 1911s sold and used. And he doesn't address if all those failed 1911s in his class were tinkered with before coming to class. It seems the best thing you can do to a 1911 is nothing (except maybe change the grips!).

Mr. Yam's article is interesting and informative and will consider myself a more educated handgun owner. Whether I agree or disagree, completely or partly, matters only to me anyway.

On the other hand, if he just wanted to get attention to himself, he found a great way to do it.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

1911s just don't work with me.
I can't fire one without it jamming, don't have this problem with ANY other pistol.

 

[seeker_two]

I put the 1911 in the same category as the HK P7 and the Colt SAA. If you are willing to dedicate yourself to the training & maintenance needed, you can do well with it. But, these guns aren't for the beginner or the casual user. Those shooters are better served with a Glock-type pistol or a DA revolver.

As for the reliability issue: I give a skeptical eye to those trainers who damn a gun as unreliable when it doesn't make it through a 5000-rd. course without a hiccup. Most carry guns aren't made for high-round torture tests....they're made to conceal well and work when called upon. If your carry gun can fire a number of rounds equal to the amount of ammo you carry on your person on a regular basis without issue, then it's reliable enough for carry.


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[Blayglock]

I've had 20+ 1911s ranging from $500-$3200, have shot close to 30000 rounds of .45 through them in training over the last 4 years, went to classes, and carried them. This last year, I have moved away from them for many of the same reasons. Too much maintenance and time to keep them running reliably under hard use is my primary reason for quitting on them. I stayed with them primarily because I likes the ergonomics and thought the trigger helped me shoot better- it doesn't. After some trigger time with my glock I can shoot it just as well an have compared my results using a timer. After realizing this I have switched for good and I am selling my last two 1911s.

The only advantage that a 1911 has for me is slow, aimed, accurate fire at 25+ yards. I can get smaller groups. Still shoot my Glock just fine though at range.

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