I see why Hollywood is afraid of firearms - Alec Baldwin kills set employee

[General Zod]

Good point and I agree. But...

...whether the recreational shooting was blanks or live ammo probably doesn't matter. Also, we don't know what style of shooting was being used for the camera as the film was being shot.

Typically, what breaks SAAs and their clones is fanning. People who have seen too many 50s westerns are likely to severely abuse those revolvers (and chew up the outside meat of their weak side hand, too) which can result in breakage in a surprisingly short amount of time. Have a look at some of the insane modifications that are done to fast-draw competition revolvers just to keep them from falling apart.

Somehow, though, I think this is all beside the point. The pistol clearly worked when Baldwin killed that woman. I don't understand what was going through the mind of anyone who chose to damage a piece of evidence during testing. There may be a good reason but I can't bring it to mind at this moment.

My understanding is that since he was claiming the hammer dropped without the trigger being pulled, the testing lab first determined that his claim was impossible, then proceeded to figure out exactly what kind of damage would be necessary to make it possible.

Baldwin's lawyers immediately jumped on that as "See! It is possible! It's a broken gun!" and for some reason were given credence...despite the obvious fact that the weapon wasn't in that condition when he killed his victim with it.

 

[benenglish]

Sounds plausible. Not exactly smart but at least plausible.

 

[leVieux]

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Baldwin is an egomaniacal narcissist who has been heading for disaster for years.

Someone should kick his butt around a block or two.

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[Glenn B]

Involuntary Manslaughter means "accidental murder" so I am guessing no.

Involuntary manslaughter is not murder, it is a type of homicide.

Homicide Under the Law

Overview of the crime of homicide, what constitutes murder versus manslaughter, the required levels of intent, and common defenses to homicide.

www.justia.com

 

[cycleguy2300]

The question at hand is not if Baldwin shot her so much, but the first that must be answered is whether Baldwin, an actor, was responsible to personally check or know firt hand that the firearm was loaded with blanks (i.e. that it was not reasonable dangerous at the distance).

Only then does the pull the trigger question come into play.

Think about other props, say a grenade or Claymore or IED. Is the actor responsible for personally verifying it is a prop? Would they even know how?

Had Baldwin been filming a story about 'nam and he tossed what he had been given as a dummy grenade towards a buddy, without pulling the pin (lets pretend here) and it turned out to be real as evidenced by blowing someone up. Who is at fault? Does it matter if he had pulled the pin?

I think the charges will be very difficult to prove against Baldwin. I believe the arms master has more culpability than Baldwin does as the actor.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

 

[General Zod]

The question at hand is not if Baldwin shot her so much, but the first that must be answered is whether Baldwin, an actor, was responsible to personally check or know firt hand that the firearm was loaded with blanks (i.e. that it was not reasonable dangerous at the distance).

Only then does the pull the trigger question come into play.

Think about other props, say a grenade or Claymore or IED. Is the actor responsible for personally verifying it is a prop? Would they even know how?

Had Baldwin been filming a story about 'nam and he tossed what he had been given as a dummy grenade towards a buddy, without pulling the pin (lets pretend here) and it turned out to be real as evidenced by blowing someone up. Who is at fault? Does it matter if he had pulled the pin?

I think the charges will be very difficult to prove against Baldwin. I believe the arms master has more culpability than Baldwin does as the actor.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

Baldwin was also the producer of the movie, and the armorer answered to him. That puts him in a position of responsibility for the safety environment, especially if, as the armorer has said, "prop" guns were regularly used for recreational shooting in off-hours and live ammunition was being tossed in with dummy rounds and blanks, all without her input. There's also the fact that Baldwin hired her as the production's armorer despite her having minimal experience and not having a certification she was apparently expected to have...and also making her the assistant prop master rather than having her only oversee the weapons.

She wasn't even on-set when the shooting happened. Nobody should have been handling weapons without her present.

Running that kind of negligent environment would definitely fall on Baldwin's shoulders.

What "Rust" armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed's statement reveals after charges

Gutierrez-Reed has been formally charged alongside Alec Baldwin with two counts of involuntary manslaughter, after the fatal shooting of Halyna Hutchins on set.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Havok1]

Baldwin, as the actor is responsible for ensuring the firearm is loaded with the proper ammo. He’s also responsible for not pointing it at other people and pulling the trigger. He violated both movie industry standards and basic firearms handling standards.

Safety Tips for Use of Firearms · Actors' Equity Association

 

[Lonesome Dove]

I can guarantee the gun was abused if not manipulated when it got confiscated. Just to protect this Turd of a person to help with his judgement.

 

[leVieux]

The question at hand is not if Baldwin shot her so much, but the first that must be answered is whether Baldwin, an actor, was responsible to personally check or know firt hand that the firearm was loaded with blanks (i.e. that it was not reasonable dangerous at the distance).

Only then does the pull the trigger question come into play.

Think about other props, say a grenade or Claymore or IED. Is the actor responsible for personally verifying it is a prop? Would they even know how?

Had Baldwin been filming a story about 'nam and he tossed what he had been given as a dummy grenade towards a buddy, without pulling the pin (lets pretend here) and it turned out to be real as evidenced by blowing someone up. Who is at fault? Does it matter if he had pulled the pin?

I think the charges will be very difficult to prove against Baldwin. I believe the arms master has more culpability than Baldwin does as the actor.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

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What reasonable person would point ANY firearm at an innocent person’s chest and pull the trigger ?

My Family’s mantra has always been: ’

’’ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded !’‘

&

‘’The ONLY real ‘’safety’’ is between your ears!’’

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[ZX9RCAM]

Haven't guns been pointed at people and fired since the start of movies?

 

[General Zod]

Haven't guns been pointed at people and fired since the start of movies?

The last few decades, the gun has been pointed off at a slight angle with the camera set to make it look like it's pointed at the other actor. Even blanks can injure at close range, and kill at point blank.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

The last few decades, the gun has been pointed off at a slight angle with the camera set to make it look like it's pointed at the other actor. Even blanks can injure at close range, and kill at point blank.

I guess that was after Brandon Lee.

 

[General Zod]

I guess that was after Brandon Lee.

And Jon-Erik Hexum.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

And Jon-Erik Hexum.

But he was way before Brandon.

 

[leVieux]

Haven't guns been pointed at people and fired since the start of movies?

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IDK, I’ve never made a real movie.

But, even in childhood play, we weren’t allowed to point our TOY guns directly at people.

Both Dad & Mom’s Dad were extremely strict about firearms safety.

I continued the tradition with my Kids . . . . . . .

leVieux

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[Lead Belly]

Baldwin, as the actor is responsible for ensuring the firearm is loaded with the proper ammo. He’s also responsible for not pointing it at other people and pulling the trigger. He violated both movie industry standards and basic firearms handling standards.

Safety Tips for Use of Firearms · Actors' Equity Association

Quite a few dropped balls:

Safety Tips for Use of Firearms​

• Use simulated or dummy weapons whenever possible.
• Treat all guns as if they are loaded and deadly.
• Unless you are actually performing or rehearsing, the property master must secure all firearms.
• The property master or armorer should carefully train you in the safe use of any firearm you must handle. Be honest if you have no knowledge about guns. Do not overstate your qualifications.
• Follow all instructions given by the qualified instructor.
• Never engage in horseplay with any firearms or other weapons. Do not let others handle the gun for any reason.
• All loading of firearms must be done by the property master, armorer or experienced persons working under their direct supervision.
• Never point a firearm at anyone including yourself. Always cheat the shot by aiming to the right or left of the target character.
• If asked to point and shoot directly at a living target, consult with the property master or armorer for the prescribed safety procedures.
• If you are the intended target of a gunshot, make sure that the person firing at you has followed all these safety procedures.
• If you are required to wear exploding blood squibs, make sure there is a bulletproof vest or other solid protection between you and the blast packet.
• Use protective shields for all off stage cast within close proximity to any shots fired.
• Appropriate ear protection should be offered to the cast members and stage managers.
• Check the firearm every time you take possession of it. Before each use, make sure the gun has been test-fired off stage and then ask to test fire it yourself. Watch the prop master check the cylinders and barrel to be sure no foreign object or dummy bullet has become lodged inside.
• Blanks are extremely dangerous. Even though they do not fire bullets out of the gun barrel, they still have a powerful blast than can maim or kill.
• Never attempt to adjust, modify or repair a firearm yourself. If a weapon jams or malfunctions, corrections shall be made only by a qualified person.
• When a scene is completed, the property master shall unload the firearms. All weapons must be cleaned, checked and inventoried after each performance.
• Live ammunition may not be brought into the theatre.
• If you are in a production where shots are to be fired and there is no qualified property master, go to the nearest phone and call Actors' Equity Association. A union representative will make sure proper procedures are followed.
• State and federal safety laws must be honored at all times.
• If any of the above safety tips conflict with the instructions given by a qualified instructor, abide by the instructions from the qualified instructor. If you are still not sure, contact your Equity Business Representative.

 

[Two Gun Bob]

Baldwin, as the actor is responsible for ensuring the firearm is loaded with the proper ammo. He’s also responsible for not pointing it at other people and pulling the trigger. He violated both movie industry standards and basic firearms handling standards.

Safety Tips for Use of Firearms · Actors' Equity Association

No, and anything suggesting that the actor futzes with the gun in any way is completely ignorant of how sets work with firearms. Read the link you posted, it contradicts your first sentence. I read an entire spiel written by someone who claimed some kind of "experience" as a set armorer and didn't even know the difference between a hot gun and a cold gun. It's not what most people think, and it's a dead giveaway they never worked as a set armorer or with one.

The part about being careless by pointing it and ...allegedly... (lol) pulling the trigger is true, but that would be a harder road for a prosecutor to climb, and was why he threw the armorer and assistant director under the bus originally. And who knows what was done behind the scenes.

Too many people try and apply general range safety to a process that is (when followed) more complex and restrictive. In fact Baldwin the Actor would have a pretty good defense with considerable precedent if he hadn't also been Baldwin the Director and Baldwin the Producer. This is where the negligence needed to convict will be drawn from. Its also a factor (or lame excuse) for not pursuing charges originally.

Something that can help the otherwise safety minded shooter make sense of some of this that seems counter to common sense:

A cold gun cannot accept ammo. Not dummy ammo, not blanks, nothing. It might even be a plastic SAA taped to a piece of steel for weight and the whole thing glued into a holster never to come out. These days if it can be done with CGI it probably will be, and cold guns are more common even (especially) in action scenes. Some of them are pretty nicely detailed and even shoot an internal counterweight to create recoil, slides may move etc. But that brass flying out and that flash is all CGI.

A hot gun can take ammo. That's it. It has nothing to do with it being loaded, it's whether it can be, and with anything at all. The two shall never meet.

 

[leVieux]

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No, and anything suggesting that the actor futzes with the gun in any way is completely ignorant of how sets work with firearms. Read the link you posted, it contradicts your first sentence. I read an entire spiel written by someone who claimed some kind of "experience" as a set armorer and didn't even know the difference between a hot gun and a cold gun. It's not what most people think, and it's a dead giveaway they never worked as a set armorer or with one.

The part about being careless by pointing it and ...allegedly... (lol) pulling the trigger is true, but that would be a harder road for a prosecutor to climb, and was why he threw the armorer and assistant director under the bus originally. And who knows what was done behind the scenes.

Too many people try and apply general range safety to a process that is (when followed) more complex and restrictive. In fact Baldwin the Actor would have a pretty good defense with considerable precedent if he hadn't also been Baldwin the Director and Baldwin the Producer. This is where the negligence needed to convict will be drawn from. Its also a factor (or lame excuse) for not pursuing charges originally.

Something that can help the otherwise safety minded shooter make sense of some of this that seems counter to common sense:

A cold gun cannot accept ammo. Not dummy ammo, not blanks, nothing. It might even be a plastic SAA taped to a piece of steel for weight and the whole thing glued into a holster never to come out. These days if it can be done with CGI it probably will be, and cold guns are more common even (especially) in action scenes. Some of them are pretty nicely detailed and even shoot an internal counterweight to create recoil, slides may move etc. But that brass flying out and that flash is all CGI.

A hot gun can take ammo. That's it. It has nothing to do with it being loaded, it's whether it can be, and with anything at all. The two shall never meet.

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Most here ae well aware that we are surrlunded by FAKE ‘’experts’’ in every area.

A while back, FOX News had an ‘’Aviation Expert’’ who didn’t even know the definitions of basic terms like ‘’height’’ vs) ‘’altitude’’.

Or, the NYC PD ‘’Firearms Expert’’ who starred in a training video for Rem 870 police guns; but had zero idea of how to operate a pump-gun.

A couple days back, I saw a ‘’9/11’’ video ‘’expert’’, who was a long retired ex Flight Attendant, who obviously had no clue as to what an aircraft ‘’transponder’’ is, or does.

So; Caveat Viewer !

leVieux

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[kbaxter60]

You really thing Alec Baldwin gives a damn about safe gun handling? He didn't "forget" anything. He didn't give a damn.

Most of y'all are missing it entirely.
You see, HE is the victim.
He never pulled the trigger. The gun fired itself. Poor man.

 

[leVieux]

Haven't guns been pointed at people and fired since the start of movies?

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Please read Havoc1’s post a couple entries above; follow the link he provided.

He provides THEIR own written policies & standards.

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