If Open Carry ever comes to Texas, I hope everyone has.........

[Chupacabra Hunter]

Terry stop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so if you accidently run a red light at an intersection and an officer pulls you over and asked for your id, is this a "terry stop"?
would you give the officer a hard time when he asks for id(drivers license)?

 

[just jk]

so if you accidently run a red light at an intersection and an officer pulls you over and asked for your id, is this a "terry stop"?
would you give the officer a hard time when he asks for id(drivers license)?

a terry stop and frisk is used when you're stopping somebody on mere suspicion

in the case of running a red light - you've got an "offense" - its a legal stop at that point

 

[matefrio]

i understand about the loss of freedom....we should protect what the constitution has given us.... you were obviously harrassed in argentina for no reason... different scenario here....

How so? We don't know how many times this guy has been stopped... Or how many times he will be stopped.

 

[Bithabus]

so if you accidently run a red light at an intersection and an officer pulls you over and asked for your id, is this a "terry stop"?
would you give the officer a hard time when he asks for id(drivers license)?

If an Officer seems me run a red light he has PC for an arrest. I show my DL when pulled over because I am required to carry it if I am operating a motor vehicle in a public place. Also, if the Officer chose to arrest me I would give him my ID because in Texas we are required to ID upon being arrested.

Terry stop requires a lower level of justification than PC, but it still requires justification. What happened in the recording was a Terry stop. When the Officer informed the man that he was not free to leave, the man was being detained. Generally when people talk about being detained, as opposed to a full blown arrest, they are talking about a Terry stop. The Officer needs reasonable suspicion that crime is afoot, but he did not have that in this case.

 

[just jk]

there was no frisk - it wasnt a terry stop

 

[Chupacabra Hunter]

a terry stop and frisk is used when you're stopping somebody on mere suspicion

in the case of running a red light - you've got an "offense" - its a legal stop at that point

ok.....thanks for the enlightenment....

 

[Chupacabra Hunter]

ok.....thanks for the enlightenment....

i dont mean that in a sarcastic way....

 

[Tejano Scott]

He was clearly detained. He asked if he was free to go and the Officer said "no".

This is correct. Bithabus is 100% accurate, the courts have clearly stated if the LEO says you are not free to go, then you are officially being "detained". If he wasn't being detained or arrested, then he had the right to leave immediately.

if the cops would have hauled him away to the city police department for further questioning, then I would agreee he was being detained....but they did not... they mearly asked for id.....

Being detained takes on many forms. From mere roadside questioning to hauling your ass down to the precinct(which is typically going to be in the form of an arrest).

This is not correct. As I said above, the Officer informed the man that he was not free to leave. This is not merely asking for id.

Again, 100% correct.

wow.... a whole hour of google....thanks.....

You don't need a whole hour. I'm an attorney and you can take my word for it, or not. But if you ask an officer "can I leave" and he says "No", then you are most definitely being detained(which as Bithabus pointed out is a term of art in criminal procedure).

 

[matefrio]

seriously? you think he's just strolling along with an open carry because he wants to be free there - armed with copies of the law, behaving like he was (and i'll give him credit for handling it the way he did, in spite of his motivation)


just my opinion, but he was either trying to prove that he's smarter than the cops - or that he's got some sort of power over them because of the way the situation worked out

"walking there and feeling free".....funny, i'll give you that

He wants to prove he has the right to walk where he wants to walk without getting harassed. This isn't a bad thing.

 

[London]

Chupacabra Hunter-

You are incorrect about the young man not being detained. If you are not free to go then you are either under arrest or detainment. You might also want to look into the difference between a Terry search and "Full" search, as well as the difference between reasonable suspicion and probable cause.

There is a very good, inexpensive book called You and the Police! which does a great job of explaining it all. I can't stress enough how important it is to know your rights; especially these days.

As far as the cops who detained the young man are concerned- they quite clearly had reasonable suspicion to detain the subject even if what he was doing was legal. If the SCOTUS has ruled that walking in a bad neighborhood late at night is reasonably suspicious, then walking with a gun certainly is- whether we pro-2A folks like it or not.

 

[Chupacabra Hunter]

This is correct. Bithabus is 100% accurate, the courts have clearly stated if the LEO says you are not free to go, then you are officially being "detained". If he wasn't being detained or arrested, then he had the right to leave immediately.



Being detained takes on many forms. From mere roadside questioning to hauling your ass down to the precinct(which is typically going to be in the form of an arrest).



Again, 100% correct.



You don't need a whole hour. I'm an attorney and you can take my word for it, or not. But if you ask an officer "can I leave" and he says "No", then you are most definitely being detained(which as Bithabus pointed out is a term of art in criminal procedure).

that being said..... i wish the video version of this was available....with the moments before the officer approached ....one thing for sure.... I have expressed my opinion and learned from this thread.

 

[Chupacabra Hunter]

Chupacabra Hunter-

You are incorrect about the young man not being detained. If you are not free to go then you are either under arrest or detainment. You might also want to look into the difference between a Terry search and "Full" search, as well as the difference between reasonable suspicion and probable cause.

There is a very good, inexpensive book called You and the Police! which does a great job of explaining it all. I can't stress enough how important it is to know your rights; especially these days.

As far as the cops who detained the young man are concerned- they quite clearly had reasonable suspicion to detain the subject even if what he was doing was legal. If the SCOTUS has ruled that walking in a bad neighborhood late at night is reasonably suspicious, then walking with a gun certainly is- whether we pro-2A folks like it or not.

thanks to all who contributed to this thread..... a time to re-visit our rights and responsiblities as citizens and gun-owners...

London- you are a gentleman and a scholar...
Tejano Scott--- thanks for the info
Bithabus--good discussion here...
just jk--i see where you are coming from...thanks...

I enjoyed the discussion.... cya on the boards...

gotta go to work now...

 

[Rum Runner]

I'm gonna throw my $0.02 in here. This whole thing is a very gray area for some and black and white for others.

On the one hand, they guy was well within his rights, and good for him for exercising them. He made some points that I thought were excellent like "How many crimes have been committed by someone open carrying a firearm?" I bet that number approaches non-existent. And no, he did not have to give his ID. He was knowledgeable about his rights and who can argue that that is a bad thing.

On the other hand, he was obviously doing something out of the ordinary. We want people to be aware and concerned. We want people to report things that are out of the ordinary. We want the police to investigate these things. All in all, I don't think anyone did anything wrong here. I know Bithabus will argue that the police did, and in a Black and White sense he is right. However, I think you have to look at the intent of these restrictions as preventing abuse. There was no abuse here. No harm, no foul.

To compare calling the police to report someone carrying a firearm to calling them about wearing baggy pants is a little out there. Although picturing a guy using baggy pants as a weapon to commit robbery is an amusing image. And comparing the police asking for ID in this situation to obvious harassment in Argentina is a weak argument too.

My problem is that even though everyone did the right thing, and most of us would like to see a society where were could open or concealed carry with few restrictions, events like this are not going to help change the hearts and minds of our opposition. All this guy accomplished is he scared enough normal people that the police were called and then he irritated and annoyed the very people he is asking to possibly risk their lives for him. I was born and raised California. Lived there for 40 years. It wasn't until I moved here a little over a year ago that I learned that CA has a (very restricted) form of open carry. Guys like this act like the best way to have educated me would have been walk down the street outside my house towards my kids with a gun on their hip. I think that is a frame of mind that will lose this war. There are better ways IMO.

 

[Tejano Scott]

I agree chupacabra hunter, this is an entertianing and informative discussion. I can see both sides of this- officers just can't ignore reports of a "man with a gun"; yet open carry is something a lot of us would like to see.

 

[kerryp]

Im not sure where i stand on this yet. He was legally in the right and officers should not have detained him, if he had tried to walk away, he would likely have been man handled, tazed, or something.

But there is also the issue that he deliberately did this. Kind of rubs me the wrong way.

Thing im curious about is why it was even dispatched. I think dispatchers should be allowed to filter things. If a guy was walking down the street with a bat in a non threatening way, the dispatcher would probably tell the person calling that walking down the street with a bat is not illegal.

Same could be done. "Ma'am, open carry of a gun is legal in Maine", "Is the person threatening anyone or doing anything suspicious"? "No", well ma'am please call us back if the person does something illegal".

Ok, we all know that is not going to happen, cops are going to be dispatched, period.

So next scenario, cops show up and just observe the person for a bit to determine if they are doing anything illegal. If not, they move on to somewhere they are needed.

Sent from Motorola Atrix using Tapatalk

 

[JADB]

Well put RR. I enjoyed this thread as well. Kudos to everybody for keeping it civil.

 

[Fisherman777]

...and how the hell is comparing a report of a dude with baggy pants to a dude carrying a gun in the open even make sense?

Because they are the same thing in that neither are illegal. If they see the guy strangling someone with those baggy pants or threatening or robbing someone with that gun, THEN they can detain them. You see a grown man carrying a gun on his hip and he's not doing anything wrong then don't bother him. All we ask for is a big helping of leave us the hell alone. Baggy pants, gun, nanner puddin'. It don't matter.

 

[Rum Runner]

Because they are the same thing in that neither are illegal. If they see the guy strangling someone with those baggy pants or threatening or robbing someone with that gun, THEN they can detain them. You see a grown man carrying a gun on his hip and he's not doing anything wrong then don't bother him. All we ask for is a big helping of leave us the hell alone. Baggy pants, gun, nanner puddin'. It don't matter.

The point was valid. The analagy was bad. Bithabus is a smart guy, so the bad analogy does not affect my opinion of him. Maybe he was laughing when he used it. Maybe he intended for it to be absurd. Maybe not. Thats a problem with this form of communication, sometimes you don't know what was intended. We have zillions ow laws relating to firearms. Many crimes are committed by people through the use of firearms. You can't say the same thing about baggy pants.

And again, just because its legal doesn't make it smart. There are better ways than to freak out the sheep.

 

[Tejano Scott]

All we ask for is a big helping of leave us the hell alone.

Fair enough. But I think others raise a valid point in is the guy in the video instigating this conflict with law enforcement just so he can look like some sort of internet bad ass by recording the conversation and having the statutes ready, etc. I dont think the guy in the video was asking for a big helping of leave me alone. In fact, it could be argued he instigated the whole thing(he may have even called 911 on himself).I think if he instigated the contacted, a lot of us may feel different. Granted, one might argue that he is going through this to educate the officers. But whether or not that's the best tactic is what I think rubs most people wrong about this situation.

 

[Fisherman777]

Fair enough. But I think others raise a valid point in is the guy in the video instigating this conflict with law enforcement just so he can look like some sort of internet bad ass by recording the conversation and having the statutes ready, etc. I dont think the guy in the video was asking for a big helping of leave me alone. In fact, it could be argued he instigated the whole thing(he may have even called 911 on himself).I think if he instigated the contacted, a lot of us may feel different. Granted, one might argue that he is going through this to educate the officers. But whether or not that's the best tactic is what I think rubs most people wrong about this situation.

Well, by "us" I mean the ones who don't go out of our way to instigate these encounters and are old enough to shave. Why is it that every one of these kinds of vids feature guys who either look like smart aleck teens or won't try to look decent. (These kids look decent but still, they look like they're in high school.) Won't shave, wears their hat backwards, won't get a decent haircut (and comb it). It's no wonder these guys have encounters. They ask for it. At least wait to open carry after you have to shave at least every other day and your voice isn't breaking. LOL

I'd like to find one of these vids that feature an adult. I've searched and watched many. Haven't found one yet.