In what condition do you carry your 1911 in??
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This thread is messed up already. two?
If Cam left them out, I might carry them off.
The Conditions of Readiness
The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the “Condition” system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. They are:
Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.
Condition Three adds a degree of “insurance” against an accidental discharge since there is no round in the chamber. To bring the gun into action from the holster, the pistol must be drawn and the slide racked as the pistol is brought to bear on the target. This draw is usually called “the Israeli draw” since it was taught by Israeli security and defense forces. Some of the real expert trainers can do an Israeli draw faster than most of us can do a simple draw, but for most of us, the Israeli draw adds a degree of complexity, an extra step, and an opening for mistakes in the process of getting the front sight onto the target.
Using the “half-cock” as a safety
The half-cock notch on the M1911 is really intended as a “fail-safe” and is not recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII:
When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it “half cocks” and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldn’t use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released.
Again, the half-cock is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with “Series 80” type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-cock when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-cock might be an option.
For more detailed discussion of the safety and internal functions of the M1911, see “Is Cocked and Locked Dangerous?”
The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the “Condition” system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. They are:
- Condition 0 – A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
- Condition 1 – Also known as “cocked and locked,” means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
- Condition 2 – A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
- Condition 3 – The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
- Condition 4 – The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.
Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.
Condition Three adds a degree of “insurance” against an accidental discharge since there is no round in the chamber. To bring the gun into action from the holster, the pistol must be drawn and the slide racked as the pistol is brought to bear on the target. This draw is usually called “the Israeli draw” since it was taught by Israeli security and defense forces. Some of the real expert trainers can do an Israeli draw faster than most of us can do a simple draw, but for most of us, the Israeli draw adds a degree of complexity, an extra step, and an opening for mistakes in the process of getting the front sight onto the target.
Using the “half-cock” as a safety
The half-cock notch on the M1911 is really intended as a “fail-safe” and is not recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII:
When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it “half cocks” and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldn’t use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released.
Again, the half-cock is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with “Series 80” type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-cock when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-cock might be an option.
For more detailed discussion of the safety and internal functions of the M1911, see “Is Cocked and Locked Dangerous?”
Let me help everyone here on what was really intended for the 1910 or what is now the 1911. Everyone has their favorite way to carry the 1911. That's fine but historic record will show the only way it was intended to be carried by the guys who designed it. Here is what they said..
How did John Browning intend the 1911 to be carried?
By John Travis on October 23, 2016 in 1911Tuner, Gun Talk
Save
1911 School.
Subject: Cocked and locked and ready to rock…the way that JMB intended! Right? Well, no. Not really. John Browning didn’t have a free hand with the 1911 and he didn’t do it alone. The 1911 was designed by a committee. Browning was hired to guide and direct as he worked on past designs to bring the US Army’s request for a new automatic pistol to reality. Simply put, he and Colt’s team of engineers and designers gave’em what they asked for…no more and no less.
There was no intent for the gun to be continuously maintained in Condition One…neither by Browning nor the US Army. It was to be a military sidearm, and…as has always been military protocol…it was to be kept with the chamber empty and the hammer lowered unless and until action was imminent or the order was given to lock and load. This is true of all military arms, from the pistol to the 155 self-propelled howitzer.
Second…Browning’s first submission of what we recognize as the 1911 was the Model of 1910, which didn’t yet have the manual safety that we’ve come to call the “thumb safety.” That was the request of the US Cavalry and the reason was so that the mounted trooper could quickly make the gun safe and free up both hands to regain control of a frightened, unruly horse on the premise that the gun would be redrawn shortly afterward. Even in those unenlightened days, the thinking heads realized that a man might neglect to get his finger away from the trigger should he have to reholster the pistol under the stress of a fight…a point that Gaston Glock either failed to consider or decided to ignore.
Browning rather gave the choices of Conditions 1…2…3…or half cocked. Beyond that, he probably didn’t give a rotund rodent’s rump what they did. A case of:
“Here ya go, boys. Here’s the pistol you asked for. You can do this, this, or this. You figure it out. I’m headed to Belgium.”
If the truth was known, he was probably pretty sick of the whole affair by the time he finished with it, and was ready to move on.
Thus, the 1911 CAN be carried cocked and locked, but it wasn’t designed or intended specifically TO be carried that way. An option. Nothing more.
Third. The grip safety was also added on request of the US Army, and it first appeared as a tacked-on addition on a few of the Model 1905s, and incorporated into the design on the 1907. Like the Model 1900, 1902, and the 1905, the 1907 still used the pivoting trigger, non-tilting twin-linked barrel, and rear slide dismount. Those pistols didn’t hold up to the recoil forces generated by the required .45 cartridge, so a complete redesign was needed. That came with the Model 1909. Here, we see the first real resemblance to the 1911. It used the tilting barrel, single link, sliding, straight-line trigger, and forward slide dismount. Like the 1907, it had a grip safety, but no thumb safety…and still relied on the captive half-cock notch for its manual safety.
Which brings us to the often maligned grip safety.
The grip safety was and is a drop safety…not a carry safety…made necessary by the heavy steel sliding trigger. It was discovered that should the pistol be dropped from the average height of a mounted trooper, it was highly likely that it would land muzzle up, and the mass of the trigger was often enough to roll the sear out of the hammer hooks far enough and for enough time to miss the half cock notch…resulting in a discharge directed upward at the horse or the rider…or other horses and riders in the immediate vicinity.
They weren’t at all concerned with muzzle down discharges because if it happened on natural ground, the bullet would go harmlessly into the dirt, and if it happened on hard pavement, the bullet would stop the instant it struck the pavement. Muzzle up discharges worried them…and thus the reason for the grip safety.
Modern lightweight, low mass triggers make this less of a concern, but it’s still a very real possibility. For this reason, I advise against disabling the grip safety when the question comes up.
When the concerns over the relative safety of a cocked and locked 1911 are voiced, I try to describe the way that the lockwork functions to put these fears to rest. Although no loaded gun can ever be completely safe, the 1911 is as safe in that mode as any loaded gun can be. Browning was the master of redundancy and designing one part to perform two or more functions, and he always had a backup system in place. In this case, the backup system is the short, almost instantaneous sear reset and the half cock notch which serves the dual purpose of manual safety and hammer arrest in case it slips off the full cock notch, or the hammer hooks both break at the same time.
How did John Browning intend the 1911 to be carried?
By John Travis on October 23, 2016 in 1911Tuner, Gun Talk
Save
1911 School.
Subject: Cocked and locked and ready to rock…the way that JMB intended! Right? Well, no. Not really. John Browning didn’t have a free hand with the 1911 and he didn’t do it alone. The 1911 was designed by a committee. Browning was hired to guide and direct as he worked on past designs to bring the US Army’s request for a new automatic pistol to reality. Simply put, he and Colt’s team of engineers and designers gave’em what they asked for…no more and no less.
There was no intent for the gun to be continuously maintained in Condition One…neither by Browning nor the US Army. It was to be a military sidearm, and…as has always been military protocol…it was to be kept with the chamber empty and the hammer lowered unless and until action was imminent or the order was given to lock and load. This is true of all military arms, from the pistol to the 155 self-propelled howitzer.
Second…Browning’s first submission of what we recognize as the 1911 was the Model of 1910, which didn’t yet have the manual safety that we’ve come to call the “thumb safety.” That was the request of the US Cavalry and the reason was so that the mounted trooper could quickly make the gun safe and free up both hands to regain control of a frightened, unruly horse on the premise that the gun would be redrawn shortly afterward. Even in those unenlightened days, the thinking heads realized that a man might neglect to get his finger away from the trigger should he have to reholster the pistol under the stress of a fight…a point that Gaston Glock either failed to consider or decided to ignore.
Browning rather gave the choices of Conditions 1…2…3…or half cocked. Beyond that, he probably didn’t give a rotund rodent’s rump what they did. A case of:
“Here ya go, boys. Here’s the pistol you asked for. You can do this, this, or this. You figure it out. I’m headed to Belgium.”
If the truth was known, he was probably pretty sick of the whole affair by the time he finished with it, and was ready to move on.
Thus, the 1911 CAN be carried cocked and locked, but it wasn’t designed or intended specifically TO be carried that way. An option. Nothing more.
Third. The grip safety was also added on request of the US Army, and it first appeared as a tacked-on addition on a few of the Model 1905s, and incorporated into the design on the 1907. Like the Model 1900, 1902, and the 1905, the 1907 still used the pivoting trigger, non-tilting twin-linked barrel, and rear slide dismount. Those pistols didn’t hold up to the recoil forces generated by the required .45 cartridge, so a complete redesign was needed. That came with the Model 1909. Here, we see the first real resemblance to the 1911. It used the tilting barrel, single link, sliding, straight-line trigger, and forward slide dismount. Like the 1907, it had a grip safety, but no thumb safety…and still relied on the captive half-cock notch for its manual safety.
Which brings us to the often maligned grip safety.
The grip safety was and is a drop safety…not a carry safety…made necessary by the heavy steel sliding trigger. It was discovered that should the pistol be dropped from the average height of a mounted trooper, it was highly likely that it would land muzzle up, and the mass of the trigger was often enough to roll the sear out of the hammer hooks far enough and for enough time to miss the half cock notch…resulting in a discharge directed upward at the horse or the rider…or other horses and riders in the immediate vicinity.
They weren’t at all concerned with muzzle down discharges because if it happened on natural ground, the bullet would go harmlessly into the dirt, and if it happened on hard pavement, the bullet would stop the instant it struck the pavement. Muzzle up discharges worried them…and thus the reason for the grip safety.
Modern lightweight, low mass triggers make this less of a concern, but it’s still a very real possibility. For this reason, I advise against disabling the grip safety when the question comes up.
When the concerns over the relative safety of a cocked and locked 1911 are voiced, I try to describe the way that the lockwork functions to put these fears to rest. Although no loaded gun can ever be completely safe, the 1911 is as safe in that mode as any loaded gun can be. Browning was the master of redundancy and designing one part to perform two or more functions, and he always had a backup system in place. In this case, the backup system is the short, almost instantaneous sear reset and the half cock notch which serves the dual purpose of manual safety and hammer arrest in case it slips off the full cock notch, or the hammer hooks both break at the same time.
All I have to say to that is that it seems pretty silly to have an external safety if you only carry with the hammer down and chamber empty.
That would be called "Condition WTF"
General Zod
TGT Addict
What condition? Sober.
So, let's see what we've got. We've got an OP who throws the bait out there to chum for answers and then lays out cut & paste dissertation on the subject in order to show a certain level of erudition. Or something.
Something tells me the OP is one helluva fun time at a bar.*
*I'm lying.
Something tells me the OP is one helluva fun time at a bar.*
*I'm lying.
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