Lawful use of force-deadly force?

[easy rider]

As a result of this, I could not convict that SUV driver had he used lethal force and I had been on his jury.

At exactly what moment do you believe deadly force would have been justified in that video? Sure he got hit when he stopped, but rolling up the window could have prevented that. Only weapon other than a fist would maybe be the helmet, but he never took it off.

 

[Maverick44]

You might see those as the same, but the law does not. In fact, the law never uses "in fear of your life" and does use the latter phrase. It is not your fear that makes the justifications, it is the facts and what, as you observed, was reasonable to believe.

Who defines what is reasonable? A jury? I consider that fearing for your life is reasonable justification for defending yourself. I consider it reasonable to assume that if a person chases you across town and assaults you, that there is a strong possibility that they are a threat to your life at that moment. I'm sure there are many who have that same sentiment. At the end of the day, you're going to have to prove that I was not being reasonable, and that's not going to be easy. Based on what we know, I'm not going the convict someone for using deadly force after being chased and assaulted.

No, only if a trier of fact determines your belief was reasonable.

Again, who determines that? A jury? I'd say that the facts show that the belief would have been reasonable in this case.

Fear is never a justification; if you ever ride in a car with my sister........

Not the same kind of fear.

no, the key PHRASE is reasonable belief, immediately necessary and UNLAWFUL DEADLY FORCE. Read chapter 9

Are you saying that punches can't prove fatal, that the biker might not have had a gun, knife, or other weapon concealed, or that you have to wait until he has a gun pointed at your head before you are justified? He chased the driver down and physically assaulted him in front of a fire station. If he's willing to do that, who's to say he's not willing to do more? It's easy to look back and bitch about this or that. When you're in the moment though, seconds can mean the difference between life or death, and I have to say that at the point of the assault, I have to assume the guy intends to do serious harm.

Already explained, but what if his belief was unreasonable?

If I was on a jury, based on the evidence I've seen I'd say it would be. Convincing one juror of that is enough for a retry at the least.

Good to know you already made up your mind without all of the facts of hearing from the SUV driver.

I made a decision based on what evidence we were presented and it should be viewed as such. Good to know you make assumptions about people though.

 

[Maverick44]

At exactly what moment do you believe deadly force would have been justified in that video? Sure he got hit when he stopped, but rolling up the window could have prevented that. Only weapon other than a fist would maybe be the helmet, but he never took it off.

How do you know that's the only weapon that could be present? How do you know that the assault would end with one punch? How do you know that rolling up the window would have prevented injury, especially if he had another weapon?

Those are questions you have to answer in a split second. We know how it turned out, and it's easy to say that the driver wasn't in severe danger now. How about at the exact moment of the assault? Are you going to just assume he doesn't mean you serious harm? Whether or not you use deadly force is a personal choice, and one that has to be made right then, not later.

 

[easy rider]

How do you know that's the only weapon that could be present? How do you know that the assault would end with one punch? How do you know that rolling up the window would have prevented injury, especially if he had another weapon?

Those are questions you have to answer in a split second. We know how it turned out, and it's easy to say that the driver wasn't in severe danger now. How about at the exact moment of the assault? Are you going to just assume he doesn't mean you serious harm? Whether or not you use deadly force is a personal choice, and one that has to be made right then, not later.

The thing is that from what I can see nobody forcefully tried to enter his vehicle and that would have fallen under "stand your ground". From what I can tell he reached in and quickly hit and then ran, at that point the threat was over and shooting him in the back would be hard to prove defense. I don't know why anyone would leave the window open if they felt their life was threatened.
I'm certainly not defending the motorcycle rider's actions, but I never saw a life threatening event.

 

[Maverick44]

The thing is that from what I can see nobody forcefully tried to enter his vehicle and that would have fallen under "stand your ground". From what I can tell he reached in and quickly hit and then ran, at that point the threat was over and shooting him in the back would be hard to prove defense. I don't know why anyone would leave the window open if they felt their life was threatened.
I'm certainly not defending the motorcycle rider's actions, but I never saw a life threatening event.

We didn't exactly see things from the POV of the SUV driver either, and we could not see what happened on that side of the vehicle. I'm not going to say that lethal force was 100% called for, but I'm not going to say it wasn't called for either. As I said before, based on what we know, I could not convict him if I was on his jury.

 

[easy rider]

We didn't exactly see things from the POV of the SUV driver either, and we could not see what happened on that side of the vehicle. I'm not going to say that lethal force was 100% called for, but I'm not going to say it wasn't called for either. As I said before, based on what we know, I could not convict him if I was on his jury.

I think anyone saying there was justification for shooting at any point in that video should probably read the laws a bit closer. I do believe there could be assault charges, but as you say we couldn't really see that either. Obviously the guy in the SUV wasn't hurt so bad that he couldn't attempt to give chase, since I did see him at the back of the vehicle.

 

[Brains]

Okay, so I've watched the video a few times, and mapped out exactly where they were at all points visible in the video. I'll try to provide as much bystander commentary as I can, but still just an observer. To be fair, I haven't lived in that town for 20 years - things may have changed.

- Small'ish town, ~90k people. 12 miles across.
- Low-medium income town, VERY blue collar, typical income in the 20's to 30's $k/yr. Typical homes you see in the video around 120-150k.
- LOTS of motorcyclists. Most blend with traffic with no issues. Rambunctious kids are usually left to go on about their antics without much second thought, even by the police - as long as they aren't harming anyone/anything.
- Heavily Italian population, with Italian tempers. The stereotype is totally real lol.
- From the direction and road they were traveling, there's really nothing but residential and small retail. Biggest thing in the area is a grocery store. The start of the altercation was very likely something incredibly benign. Speed limit is 30mph for several miles in the direction they came.
- City still looks exactly the same. Except that O'Reilly at the beginning, that's new. They probably had a parade.
- I at one time lived less than two blocks East of the 4-way stop they blew through (by the elementary school).
- Due to very small land area, cops are always mere blocks away. It's no surprise it didn't take long for them to be stopped. Cops there are good folks though (worked in IT for the County, got to know quite a few of 'em).
- Tensions have been on the rise (per my friends who still live there) due to increased crime rates. There have been more violent crimes happening in the open in recent years. There were always shootings and such, but they apparently aren't as confined to certain known areas anymore.
- At the time I lived there, traffic altercations like this were VERY rare. Motorists were more often than not cooperative and non-aggressive to each other. Watching other motorists in the video, that looks to still be the case.

So in my humble opinion, this was one of those outlier cases of two people who can't let something go, both getting themselves into a potentially bad situation. If this were to have happened to me, in that same situation and back in that town, I'd have brushed it off as someone being worse off than me that day - and simply riding away. Why that kid chased the guy down or why the guy allegedly spit at him, only they know.

 

[txinvestigator]

Not the same kind of fear.

That's right, and that is why fear is not a justification. You likely WILL feel fear, but it is not necessary. Also the fear, in and of itself, is not enough.

A punch might be deadly force, it depends on the totality of the circumstances.

Keep in mind that I am not making a judgment on this incident. I am simply telling you that "being in fear if your life" is not a justification of deadly force. The specific facts and the requirements of chapter 9 are.

 

[avvidclif]

To put it the way a friend did: I'm too old to fight, too fat to run, and am not taking another ass-whopping.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Question due to my ignorance.
Had the SUV driver used pepper spray prior to being struck, would that have been assault on his part, as he was the "alleged" instigator?

Not directed towards anyone in particular, but was this question intentionally ignored due to its stupidity, or just missed?

 

[easy rider]

Not directed towards anyone in particular, but was this question intentionally ignored due to its stupidity, or just missed?

Wasn't quite sure, would depend on the circumstances I believe.

 

[Renegade]

Lawful use of force, deadly force question.
Let’s say you are the driver of a back SUV. You cut off a pair of motorcycles in traffic. They begin to chase you and you call 911. They continue to give chase for four minutes as police are routed to the area. You are instructed by 911 to pull into a fire station which you do. One of the motorcyclists dismounts and approaches your driver door.

At any time can you lawfully use force or deadly force and when?

At not time, since they have not used force. Maybe they are chasing you because contact was made when you cut them off, and they want to exchange insurance info, maybe they too are talking to 911, reporting you as an aggressive driver.

 

[V-Tach]

 

[sdismukes]

We’re it me seeing the biker coming my way... there would have been a .40 unholstered and just out of view. The window would not have been down. Had anything then made me think the biker was coming through the window, lead would have been going the other way. Had the biker just yelled or spit or whatever, let ‘im vent. If he started to get even more aggravated, say him displaying a knife, I might consider brandishing - letting him see the end of the barrel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cycleguy2300]

This is a situation where an intermediate tool like OC spray is great. It is a LOT easier to articulate justification for its use as it is "force".
You *COULD* be justified in pulling a gun, (threat of deadly force justified if force justified) but what are you going to do if biker dude keeps coming? You cant shoot him and now you've got a gun in your hand. Maybe the guy is trying to let you know you have a flat tire, or he wants to punch you.

Have your gun ready in case SHTF, but driving off (even if not legally required) or OC spray would be my go to, in that order.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[SapientHetero]

I once had a guy (in a car) follow me after becoming disgruntled in traffic. When I stopped behind other vehicles at a red light he got out of his vehicle, came up to my open window (I lived in Florida in mid-summer and my AC had just stopped working) and reached in to mess with me. I grabbed his arm, yanked hard while leaning back abruptly and slammed his head into the top of my door.

He was suddenly uninterested in continuing the conversation.

 

[zincwarrior]

We’re it me seeing the biker coming my way... there would have been a .40 unholstered and just out of view. The window would not have been down. Had anything then made me think the biker was coming through the window, lead would have been going the other way. Had the biker just yelled or spit or whatever, let ‘im vent. If he started to get even more aggravated, say him displaying a knife, I might consider brandishing - letting him see the end of the barrel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Call 911 and video it, then drive away laughing when he gets off the bike...

 

[cycleguy2300]

This is where OC spray fits in the force spectrum.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[sdismukes]

So I gotta carry a video camera and OC spray so I can be adequately prepared for whatever eventuality? Get real, soon you’ll be saying I also need a taser and a knife and god knows what else to be properly arrayed.

Some places you can’t fight back with more than is displayed against you. Texas was that way in the 70’s. So if a burglar trapped you in an upstairs bath and all he had was a 6” Bowie then you had to excuse yourself to go to the kitchen and grab any knife under 6” so you could have a knife fight with the burglar.

This OC and video “stuff” being always at hand is just as dumb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cycleguy2300]

So I gotta carry a video camera and OC spray so I can be adequately prepared for whatever eventuality? Get real, soon you’ll be saying I also need a taser and a knife and god knows what else to be properly arrayed.

Some places you can’t fight back with more than is displayed against you. Texas was that way in the 70’s. So if a burglar trapped you in an upstairs bath and all he had was a 6” Bowie then you had to excuse yourself to go to the kitchen and grab any knife under 6” so you could have a knife fight with the burglar.

This OC and video “stuff” being always at hand is just as dumb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No one said you've got to carry anything, but the smart guy would carry some OC when practical. It maintains a reactionary gap and is only force, which in reality is going to be the answer to many more scenarios than my pistol. A pistol is definitely the right tool for the job sometimes, but it shouldnt be the only tool you have.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk