My First Rifle, AR vs. AK

[308nato]

Check out www.classicarms.us as they have a lot of rifles at good prices
and some good ammo prces also.

 

[M. Sage]

This vid will change your mind about AKs accuracy:
YouTube - AK 47 vs M16

That video is such BS. I've sighted in many AKs, mostly the "cheaper" and less-desirable Romanian "G" kits that were home-built into rifles. At 50 yards, I would fire two rounds, spot and adjust, repeat. A lot of those rifles, if I tried really hard to be consistent would give show me two touching holes when I'd spot.

There are a few reasons the AK has such a bad rep for being inaccurate. The sights suck, the sights on an AR are far better, but if you put optics (my best accuracy was with an EOTech) on an AK it can surprise you. I'd put an AK with cheap ammo at about the 2-3MOA realm - 4MOA at the worst, in my experience, which is more than good enough (military spec for an M16 or M4 with military ammo is 4MOA...). The trigger is horrible, it's light but mushy and long with no discernible breaking point (modded mine into a two-stage). Finally, the people using them - look at who has AKs; quasi-literate communist conscripts and folks in third world countries who still live in caves. Not exactly marksmen.

Interesting video, Al. But the accuracy of the rifles portrayed here is subjective to the shooter's talent. A sighted in AK at 200 yards and a decent shooter would have pegged the target just as well as the AR shooter did in this video.

I know I can hit a human torso at 300 yards with my AK, and mine's not exactly a great rifle.

I'm looking for something that goes bang everytime I pull the trigger without fail. Although the wife probably won't shoot it on a regular basis, if something happen to me, and she needed it, she has to be able to pick it up and start shooting. I'm not looking to swap out parts on a regular basis, I want to buy or build what I need, and then maintain an shoot it. I'm not looking for a cool toy or bragging rights. I cc a bersa 380, because it fits my needs, not because its the coolest thing available. I've looked at a few other weapons, but as said above both the AR, and AK are proven in battle, and relatively cheap for a modern magazine fed semiauto rifles.

The point of the rifle is, if things ever get so bad, that this is the only way I can defend my family I want something that will certainly persuade people to pick another target. So good cheap ammo is a concern here too. I almost thing because the AR is an American weapon ammo should be easier to come by, but I'm seeing AK ammo listed at lower prices.

Any modern military rifle will achieve this, though if I was going to hand a 12 year old a rifle and send him off to be a little guerilla, I'd hand him an AK because they're a little simpler to maintain. Not that the AR is hard, but you do have to make sure it's properly lubed. AKs don't give a damn about lube, and the magazines are about 100X stronger (and five times heavier) than military AR mags.

Get an SKS. It's design pre-dates the AK and it's just as reliable. The only comprimise is the fixed box magazine. It is heavier because of the milled reciever and more accurate than an AK. If you have to have replaceable magazines, you can buy versions of the SKS that use AK mags. At $250-400 you can get a great quality SKS and get your feet wet with a combat rifle very similar to the AK. Another great alternative that few people think about is the VZ-58 which is another milled receiver, striker fired version of the AK. Those are about $850 though. Otherwise, I agree with most of what has been said. If you buy an AR, the honeymoon will never end and you will keep buying stuff for it until you are tapped out.

The SKS predates the AK by two years (1945 vs 1947 - fun fact; some early SKS rifles saw action during the fall of Berlin). It's way heavier, and a bit less ergonomic. Accuracy might be slightly better, but I haven't got enough experience with the SKS; I think the big limiting factor is going to be the ammunition and barrel quality, not the extra 4" of barrel the SKS has. Personally, I'd stick with the AK.

I, like most of the others, have both. "I" would lean twards the AR, if it were me and those are the only choices. As long as you maintain the AR, it will give you great service.

Actually, .223 IS cheaper (if you reload). As far as the wife grabbing it, if something happend to you, the AR is, by far, a better choice. Not near as much recoil.

Now, if this is a home defense weapon, I would lean twards a 12 guage shotgun. Point and shoot. A Knox stock would dampen the recoil down enough for a 12 year old girl to shoot. 12 guage ammo is cheap and there is NOTHING like the sound of a shotgun being racked. IMO

Carbines make great home defense weapons, too. They can be had much shorter (not counting the models with no stock on them - you ain't going to aim a pistol grip only shotgun), ammo count is astronomically higher, they're lighter, and follow-up shots are faster because of the lower recoil. Also, if I had to shoot near someone I didn't want to hit, there are shots that I'd much rather take with a carbine. With any long gun, most indoor situations will be point and shoot. A shotgun in a HD situation is still going to need as much control as any other firearm. 00B will pattern about fist-size at typical in the home distances.

One bonus - most body armor will stop shotgun rounds, but won't stop rifle rounds. There's a reason more and more SWAT teams have gone to M4s...

This almost sounds like maybe I should forget about the AK, get an SKS from me, and an AR a little later for the wife and not worry about the 9mm carbine. I've seen the 22lr conversions for AR's and would probably get one eventually anyway if I went that route, I saw one really cheap here in Dallas last night.
The over all plan was to get a 9mm carbine and share fairly cheap ammo with a 9mm handgun I would be using sometimes for CC. But for getting the wife into shooting, and range time the 22lr conversion would be even better.

I use to see SKS's for 100.00 and passed on them, now I regretting it.

Ok, I'm finally going to make a recommendation. I shoot and own AKs; love 'em to pieces. But if it's your first rifle, you should get an AR in my opinion however... you should try meeting up with someone that has both and shooting the rifles before you decide. You might love the AR's superior sights and feel (it really is a much finer weapon), or the "sproing" might drive you up a tree. You might love the AK's rugged simplicity, or you might decide that it's a cheap POS meant for simply spraying lead around.

But again IMO you should buy the AR. Why? Because it's a real rifleman's rifle. It has proper sights, a decent trigger and a great feel. You can adapt the rifle to suit your needs - how many other platforms can go from .22 to crossbow (yes really) to .50 BMG and back again in a couple of minutes? No other platform gives you the choices in sights, calibers, triggers, grips, etc. etc. Yes, it can be a bad thing when you realize that you've dropped 4 grand into a rifle you meant to keep simple, or it can be a good thing. You should pick up an AR, I'd go with a flat-top ("A3 style") 20" rifle and leave the "carry handle" (that only noobs carry the rifle by) on so that you can learn to use iron sights. Save up for a .22 upper, a 16" barrel upper, and a good red dot or holographic sight, probably in that order. If you intend the rifle for home defense, invest in a light and some training ASAP - fighting with a gun sounds easy, but I suspect it's like a lot of other things that also sound easy until you're trying it for the first time under stress. Yes, you can use a 20"-barreled rifle for indoor fighting. The Marines do it all the time, and until the M4 got to be popular, so did everybody else. It's not optimal, but if you know what you're doing (training!) you can do it.

Learn to shoot well with iron sights, then buy yourself an EOTech as a reward. Don't take short cuts on learning rifle skills and you'll be rewarded. Take shortcuts and you'll have mediocre skills.

As far as the Mrs. "needing" to learn on a .22 conversion, forget it. The recoil on a 5.56x45 AR is so low that you won't notice a lot of difference. The rifle was designed with recoil control in mind, and Stoner did a hell of a job, not that 5.56 has a lot of recoil impulse to begin with.

The AK has slightly more recoil, but it's still not much. Most of the "tactical" shooting I've done with both designs has been done with only the toe of the butt on my shoulder, so forget recoil being an issue.

 

[apariah]

Training is paramount! Most of the people I train with are marksmen, and just about all of them have had CQB training. The only problem is, just like many of the people here their opinions differ on which I should go for AK, or AR, but those are the two choices. I looked a 308, and many years ago I got to play with a M1 Grand 30.06, but its really not what I'm looking for right now, Thanks for all the suggestions, I think I'm going to start looking for an AR.

 

[thopkins22]

...I think I'm going to start looking for an AR.

Then do yourself a favor and kick that budget up a little bit and do some research. In the end you'll be happy you saved for quality.

 

[M. Sage]

+1 on saving for quality. If you go with a 16" barrel, do yourself a favor and get a full-length gas system if you can. But a piston rifle is not really needed IMO.

 

[ftw13]

save money and a lot of trouble,go for the AK. The AK is more reliable,easier to strip and clean....and most accessories are far less expensive as well. You also won't void your warranty by shooting steel cased ammo,which is what its mean to shoot. ARs shit where they eat....not the greatest idea....i think you'd be happy with an AK. I do really recommend the 74 though,very very little no recoil.....accurate,simple and dependable. You can also put a folding stock on it,even AR stocks if you like. Get yourself a hogue pistol grip and you're good to go. All without spending through the nose.

 

[thopkins22]

The AK is more reliable,easier to strip and clean....and most accessories are far less expensive as well. You also won't void your warranty by shooting steel cased ammo,which is what its mean to shoot.

I've had more malfunctions with AKs than my ARs. In thousands upon thousands of rounds of 5.56 I've had exactly ONE malfunction with an AR, and that was a bad mag. That may be because most AKs are from parts kits and my ARs are top shelf though.

You've seen an AR manufacturer state that shooting steel cased ammo would void the warranty? If so you're buying the wrong ARs....

 

[Ride4TheBrand]

I've had more malfunctions with AKs than my ARs. ....

What malfunctions?

 

[thopkins22]

What malfunctions?

The occasional stovepipe and one doublefeed that never reappeared.

 

[WhoDat]

If the choice is AK or AR, I'd say AR. While you can make slight modifications to an AK, it's nowhere near as modular as an AR. An AR is a lego-like platform that you can tweak til the cows come home. I have ARs in .223, 6.8, 7.62x39, and AR10s in .308. I love switching stocks, triggers, optics, handguards, etc. between them.

Along those lines, I would not suggest buying the biggest & baddest AR, first. Buy the cheapest one you can get your hands on, as an experiental platform, and then modify. You may wind up making upgrades to it, and may eventually have several that you can play with. You'll find out the features 7 mods that work best for you. As it's your first rifle, you probably haven't decided the aspects that are best to spend on, with your rifle. I know my idea of the perfect AR, several years ago, is nowhere close to what I'd like right now. Start basic, and work from there. My cheapest ARs probably all shoot better than I do.

Just buy a lower and go to AKPartkits, Model1Sales, RGuns, or somewhere like that. Start with a basic 16" 5.56 carbine, and work from there. You should be able to build something halfway decent for under $600. Then add optics, rails, etc.... for thousands more! LOL.

I like AKs and ARs, but find ARs are more fun, due to their modular nature. They also do shot better than AKs. Yes, they're more accurate. No way an AK can come close. That's just not what they were designed for.

However, if the goal is to become a better rifleman, I still say you may want to consider a bolt.

Or, build a $600 AR, buy a $400 Yugo, and call it a day.

 

[ftw13]

a lot of mfgrs state that shooting steel cased ammo voids your AR warranty,read the fine print. I love the AR platform it is very modular yes,however it shits where it eats....bad idea. SOCOM is outfitting them with HK416 piston systems for a reason,something to think about. Low end AKs are totally different from a quality AK rifle,same goes for ARs. If you get an AR go with a BCM,LMT or the like....don't get a Stag,Bush,RRA etc etc.

 

[thopkins22]

a lot of mfgrs state that shooting steel cased ammo voids your AR warranty,read the fine print.

Which? I'm willing to bet that they're also the ones that don't spec out well in the first place.

I love the AR platform it is very modular yes,however it shits where it eats....bad idea. SOCOM is outfitting them with HK416 piston systems for a reason,something to think about.

But they aren't replacing them with AKs. And even then, how many ODAs do you think are actually deploying with piston guns right now? I'm not convinced that "shitting where it eats" is a problem. At one point I shot almost two thousand rounds through my LMT and while every five hundred rounds or so I'd shoot some oil through the gas holes in the carrier, I did not clean it at all(not the chamber, bolt, bolt carrier, reciever, barrel...none of it,)and didn't have one hiccup.

Low end AKs are totally different from a quality AK rifle,same goes for ARs. If you get an AR go with a BCM,LMT or the like....don't get a Stag,Bush,RRA etc etc.

No doubt, my AK is of middle of the road quality, certainly not an Arsenal, while my three ARs are BCM, LMT, and DD. But this doesn't tell me much about the platform itself...it tells me to buy quality regardless of platform and you'll experience high reliability. The decision to be made regarding AK vs. AR should revolve around ergonomics and ballistics. Ergonomically the AR wins hands down. Comparing ballistics becomes tricky. Do you need to shoot through intermediate barriers? AK In regards to terminal ballistics, only 5.56 seems to be taking advantage of modern bullet design. Recoil/follow up shots? AR.

An $800 spending limit makes the decision easy however. Choose the AK, or kick that budget up $200 and buy a quality AR that's tested in all the right places and built properly.

 

[ftw13]

the ballistics is why i recommended the 74 in 5.45x39 you sir have great taste in AR mfrgrs.....don't get me wrong i like ARs i'm absolutely not trying to trash them. i was simply offering him the option of having the simplicity/reliability of an AK and the accuracy of an AR within the AK platform.

 

[thopkins22]

the ballistics is why i recommended the 74 in 5.45x39 you sir have great taste in AR mfrgrs.....don't get me wrong i like ARs i'm absolutely not trying to trash them. i was simply offering him the option of having the simplicity/reliability of an AK and the accuracy of an AR within the AK platform.

Roger that, and at his price point I do agree with you. Lots of good surplus deals on 5.45x39 right now too.

 

[ftw13]

i do believe the 74 is a superior weapon to the 47. especially since there are beryl rails,etc. and the like for aks now to add optics to really disspell that myth that the ak isnt accurate.as for 5.56 ballistics,they're just fine....the military has issues because of the green tip ammo.

 

[Adionik]

Field stripping an AR looks like a huge pain in the ass compared to an AK

 

[ftw13]

not really,you probably saw them strip down the entire bolt carrier...that is kinda. ARs have lots of little springs and pins. AK is definitely a much simpler weapon system,just shoot them both and decide which you like better. But if you get an AK go with the 74 ya won't be sorry.

 

[Texas42]

lol, this thread is fun to read.

First off, I don't own either. . . well, I have a full lower that needs an upper to be a "real" rifle.

Here is my 2 cents.
1. You get what you pay for. Don't expect a $500 rifle to shoot like a $1000 rifle, to shoot like a $5000 rifle.
2. Most people, like me, get out-shot by their $500 rifles.
3. Either rifle is going to be minute-of-bad guy, the question is, are you?
4. Lot of people dead from 5.56 and 7.62x39, its a rifle, dude. Untill the robot aliens show up, either will work.
5. You are gonna have a hard time reloading 7.62x39 (if that is what you want to do)
6. Get the rifle/pistol/squirt gun you want. Save up what you need to. Don't let a couple hundred bucks get in the way. If you have the gun for years, it is virtually nothing/year.

Have fun. Shooting is suppose to be fun.

 

[navyguy]

Field stripping an AR looks like a huge pain in the ass compared to an AK

Not so hard..,,, just for grins.

YouTube - McKenzie -11yo Girl Sets New Record for Field Stripping AR15

 

[swsmailman]

Now that is a girl that knows what she is doing.

Maybe I can teach my sister how to field strip a couple of rifles.