Old age question, Ak 47 Vs Ar 15/M4 etc

[M. Sage]

By oddball, I mean there aren't tens of thousands of different places where I can find parts, accessories and magazines. By oddball, I mean I can't think of a single gunsmith that's an expert on the platform.

One big advantage I can think of to a well-known design is that it's been proven. You can point to the AR and AK platforms in countless wars in countless places and say "it works."

 

[nalioth]

By oddball, I mean there aren't tens of thousands of different places where I can find parts, accessories and magazines. By oddball, I mean I can't think of a single gunsmith that's an expert on the platform.

One big advantage I can think of to a well-known design is that it's been proven. You can point to the AR and AK platforms in countless wars in countless places and say "it works."

You can point to the Vz58 in every conflict it's been used in, and say "it works", too.

As I've often said, the Vz58 is superior to the AK in all but numbers produced.

 

[mkillebrew]

We're talking about the Czechs here, they're not known for the engineering failures in firearms. The CZ-52 adapted a machine gun delay system for a pistol and featured a firing pin safety and a decocker, something many manufacturers neglect in modern guns. They designed the BREN gun which was the backbone of any British infantry unit. They followed that with the VZ-58 that was greatly successful and still in use. Then there was the CZ-75 that was adopted by many nations, to give rise to the Tanfoglio and Jericho 941. As long as we're on the topic of Czech guns originating other designs, there's the SA.23 was the first to have an in grip magazine and bolt that wrapped around the barrel, the very design the Uzi was taken from.

Parts availability isn't a valid reason to disregard such a successful design as there are more than a handful of places you can order parts for, though I can't see many that I would anticipate breaking. The VZ.58's design is such that you don't have extreme forces on the hammer as the bolt recoils upon firing like the AK or AR. The sear catches it on the way back which is also a low stress interaction on that part and the crosspins. There are anti-rotation pins to solve the issue of wear for the AR, while the VZ.58's design obviates the need. An AR owner might insist that an extractor might be first to break on a VZ, however, as there are no interlocking lugs on the bolt face it allowed the extractor to be larger than other designs, and the tapered walls of the 7.62x39 round afford easier extraction than the 5.56x45.

On failures, there's no digging around in a small ejection port or having to snap off a receiver cover if you have some irritatingly complex jam as the entire top of the VZ.58 is open.

 

[HalfCityHalfCountry]

Home defense for this one.
and I'm dead set on one of those two for my first,
I've had shotguns and other pistols but, I've always wanted either or.
Later on i plan on buying a remington 700, 50 bmg, and few others.
Going into law enforcement so I can feel better about spending so much on my guns.

 

[tussery]

FYI the FAL is tilting breech block.

 

[mkillebrew]

FYI the FAL is tilting breech block.

No, the bolt tilts. The bottom right here is where it contacts the locking shoulder. There is just a bolt carrier and bolt on the FAL, no third component.

This is the tilting locking breech block attached to the bolt that sits inside the bolt carrier in a VZ.58. There is a large operational difference.

 

[Leadslinger]

i have always been interesting in these. I did opt for the siaga. How much for the mags? are they plentiful? how much for kit and receiver? how much for complete weapon? Can you still find them surplus? you web page is a good source of info. what about lengthening the sight radius of the weapon?

 

[tussery]

Go read every technical description of an FAL and you will find nowhere where it is mentioned that it has a bolt. The piece you posted is the FAL breechblock. Trust me I have a FAL manual in my safe and nowhere is there a bolt on the FAL.

 

[mkillebrew]

Century makes complete VZs with american barrels and receivers for about $400. Czech parts kits are $180 at apexgus, Czech receivers are $350 at czechpoint-usa. Magazines are plentiful and go for $13 each. $825 for a complete Czech made rifle. I'm not sure the Czech made ones are better than the Century guns, but they do have a different barrel diameter at the chamber end and are over 16" while Czech barrels are 15.25" and require either an extension or muzzle device permanently attached.

For $400 for the Century, I think I'd take that chance, how bad can it be?

 

[mkillebrew]

Go read every technical description of an FAL and you will find nowhere where it is mentioned that it has a bolt. The piece you posted is the FAL breechblock.

Argue semantics with someone who is interested, I'm talking function.

 

[tussery]

You want to argue the semantics then the VZ 58 is a falling breech block.

 

[mkillebrew]

You want to argue the semantics then the VZ 58 is a falling breech block.

I thought I made it clear that I didn't care to.

 

[nalioth]

For $400 for the Century, I think I'd take that chance, how bad can it be?

I'd not ask that question with Century involved.



You just might find out. . . .

 

[M. Sage]

We're talking about the Czechs here, they're not known for the engineering failures in firearms. The CZ-52 adapted a machine gun delay system for a pistol and featured a firing pin safety and a decocker, something many manufacturers neglect in modern guns. They designed the BREN gun which was the backbone of any British infantry unit. They followed that with the VZ-58 that was greatly successful and still in use. Then there was the CZ-75 that was adopted by many nations, to give rise to the Tanfoglio and Jericho 941. As long as we're on the topic of Czech guns originating other designs, there's the SA.23 was the first to have an in grip magazine and bolt that wrapped around the barrel, the very design the Uzi was taken from.

The CZ-52 is a soup sandwich. The roller locking breech isn't as strong as it gets credit for. The decocker is pointless and moronic; first, wear commonly turns these into a secondary trigger, second why the hell would anybody put a decocker on a single-action firearm!? It's like a screen door on a submarine, especially with the heavy mainspring that means you are not going to cock the hammer without using both hands (and I have strong hands!) The drop safety plunger (which is common on modern firearms) makes the trigger pull atrocious (took mine out, replaced with modified firing pin with a spring to push it back - awesome trigger now). Let's not even get into the grip shape.

I have a 52 and really like it, but there are huge issues with the design. It's not what I'd call "great". The biggest advantages it has are the easy disassembly and its potential for accuracy with a barrel that doesn't tilt. My CZ52 is a toy, not something I'd carry for serious use.

The BREN was a joint venture between Brno and Enfield. It's not entirely Czech.

I still suggest people avoid designs that are not widely used and debugged. The AR and AK have this advantage and they enjoy terrific support in the aftermarket. There's not really any way the Vz58 can compete with them.

 

[M. Sage]

I'd not ask that question with Century involved.



You just might find out. . . .

LOL, CAI. Yikes.

 

[Texan2]

The AR and AK have this advantage and they enjoy terrific support in the aftermarket. There's not really any way the Vz58 can compete with them.

+1

 

[mkillebrew]

I suppose if you buy based on the clothes available for you to dress up your barbie instead of the merits of the firearm itself an AR would be the best route. Moreover, the ZB-26 predates any inclusion from the Brits.

 

[nalioth]

I still suggest people avoid designs that are not widely used and debugged. The AR and AK have this advantage and they enjoy terrific support in the aftermarket. There's not really any way the Vz58 can compete with them.

The Vz58 has been used by the Czech military since ts adoption in 1958. If it was that bad, don't you think they'd have adopted something else?

Everywhere the Vz58 has been exported (for combat use), it was preferred over the AK.

I suppose if you buy based on the clothes available for you to dress up your barbie instead of the merits of the firearm itself an AR would be the best route.

Couldn't have said it better. . .

Hate to tell you guys, but aesthetics has no combat potential.

 

[M. Sage]

I suppose if you buy based on the clothes available for you to dress up your barbie instead of the merits of the firearm itself an AR would be the best route. Moreover, the ZB-26 predates any inclusion from the Brits.

No, I go with proven systems that are cheap and easy. The 58 is still too exotic, sorry.

 

[mkillebrew]

Hate to tell you guys, but aesthetics has no combat potential.

You can dazzle the enemy with how fabulous you look. While they're talking about how well color coordinated your foregrip and multiple optics are and how your magpul stock totally goes with your pmags, you can get the drop on them.