Only FFLs at Austin Shows?!?

[Burt Gummer]

It's called the Second Amendment...

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Then there's all the laws of Texas that allow personal sales of firearms to other eligible residents without an FFL.

Do they check your driving record when you go to buy a car?

Does this include persons illegally in this country and convicted felons? So THEY have the universal right to bear arms as you and I? If so, please sell me on that.
I agree Texas law supports ELIGIBLE persons buying without FFL, I have done it many times myself. What the APD is addressing is not the eligible persons in my opinion.

 

[majormadmax]

I am not arguing that, I am arguing that law-abiding citizens have a Constitutional right to bear arms, and the liberal, California-wannabes up in Austin are trying to stomp on that God-given right. I don't believe illegal aliens are citizens of this country, so they should not be extended the rights thereof. Convicted felons lost the privilege, the same way other rights are lost when they are incarcerated.

I also don't let the Texas Gun Shows folks off the hook as it appears they were well aware of these restrictions and went ahead and signed the contract, then tried to play it off like they were unaware and it was beyond their control. Their priority seems to be trying to pull as much money out of our wallets as they can, which I will no longer tolerate. I have yet to go to one of their shows and feel it was worth the time or money. SAXET shows are 5-6x larger and cheaper to attend (in terms of admission, as otherwise I tend to spend a lot of money at them!).

This entire experience has made me appreciate even more that I live in a city that respects gun owners! Sure, there are some restrictions I don’t agree with; but after seeing what happened in Austin I am even more happy that I live in San Antonio!

 

[TexasRedneck]

M2, the city of SA does NOT really "respect" gun owners - they tolerate 'em. They banned all gun shows at city-owned facilities over 10 years ago!

 

[RPB]

I wonder if CrimeStoppers Capital Area Crime Stoppers - Home Page and https://www.tipsubmit.com/WebTips.aspx?AgencyID=103
pays for tips on a Class A Misdemeanor regarding violations of Texas Penal Code Section 39.03, that occurred at a Gun Show in Austin. PENAL CODE** CHAPTER 39. ABUSE OF OFFICE

I wonder who would arrest the Federal instigators/perpetrators of this offense.

I know, Crimestoppers is for serious felony crimes, not class a misdemeaners, and that won't ever happen, but would be fun to watch say County Constables/Sheriff's deputies or Texas Rangers arresting Federal agents and sending Obama a message.

 

[TheDan]

My personal preference would be for the city to finally start enforcing the immigration laws and sending some of these turds back to the dirt shack which they came from. I know our taxes,schools, and hospitals would appreciate it too.

I agree we need to crackdown on immigration laws. Illegals "working the system" to purchase guns is a symptom of the real problem, not the problem itself. Error on the side of liberty...

 

[TAZ]

I will share my concerns about this issue; and I call them concerns because I am still not sure exactly what happened or who truly did what to whom.

I am not in any way shape or form upset that APD/BATFE arresting illegals or other prohibited persons trying to buy guns. Nor am I against them arresting people, dealers or private individuals, who knowingly sell to prohibited persons. I am actually 100% in support of those actions.

The logical argument for non FFL transfers at shows or any place else is state law. I am not a lawyer so I'm sure that someone better qualified can spell it out in nitty gritty detail, but my understanding of the law is that it's illegal to knowingly trasfer a gun to a prohibited person. That law applies state wide, in your home, in a parking lot or even at a gun show. To me that means that face to face sales are perfectly legal so long as the seller isn't knowlingly selling to a prohibited person and it's up to the state to proove that the seller was knowingly selling to a prohibited person. Personally I thinks it's pretty logical to assume that something that is perfectly legal in the state is also legal at a gunshow in that state.

What I am concerned about is this. APD/BATFE or someone doesn't like the law of te land and in all fairness I can understand their frustration cause I can see it being difficult to prove beyond a doubt that someone knew someone else was a prohibited person. Instead of trying to get the law changed as the government always insists that we mere civilians do, they go about circumventing it through seemingly questionable ways i.e. intimidating a landlord with supposedly questionable information. This is what concerns me.

I don't think that people believe that their gun rights are being stepped on by arresting prohibited people buying guns or sellers who knowingly sell to prohibited persons. They are upset that their property rights are being limited by seemingly nefarious means. I am also sure that the hypocracy of APD and Austin doesn't help the situation much. You know they part about being a sanctuary city that invites criminals to come live here, then gets seemingly upset that those criminals break more laws and finally appears to questionably put into play actions that don't prevent criminals from doing what they way but does limit your and my ability ot do something deemed perfectly legal in the state.

For me this whole thing goes back to the same thing. If you don't like the law lobby to change it, just like we had to to get CHL. Not a soul here would argue that people should go out there and ignore laws they don't like, so then why are we expected to be ok with the government seemingly doing so.

I preface this post by saying I am an avid shooter and gun lover, with military and law enforcement experience so I have been on both sides of the law in my time.
I have read all of these above posts but some things are confusing me.

Is the main issue that APD is involved with arresting folks selling firearms to illegals and/or felons? If this is an issue could someone please explain why they would disagree.

Is there a logical argument to oppose why ALL firearm purchases at guns shows should NOT be through FFL/background check? If so please present it to me to help me understand. It seems a background check may weed out a few turds.

I read the news articles and they state that illegals are shopping sellers until they find one which will sell to them. Does anybody think that illegals should be able to buy guns easily? If so, please help me understand how it benefits you and me.

Overall, what I am getting is that many are mad that APD/BATFE are infringing upon their gun rights with the result of arresting folks selling to illegals and possibly felons. It seems as if many will not stand for any limitations no matter what criminal it catches or what trouble it saves. It is our right to feel that way of course but my sense of logic is still not grasping this.

Who has personally been affected by this recent incident with APD? Did it prevent YOU from buying a gun? Thanks for the responses and the info you guys will provide me.

 

[majormadmax]

M2, the city of SA does NOT really "respect" gun owners - they tolerate 'em. They banned all gun shows at city-owned facilities over 10 years ago!

I thought the Freeman Coliseum was city-owned, but I see on their web site that they are "community-owned." Still, I would rather have SA's "tolerance" of gun shows over Austin's outright harassment!

On a lighter note, I found it amusing that the Freeman web site bragged about hosting Milli Vanilli, New Edition and Menudo in concert back in the 80s!

Cheers! M2

 

[country_boy]

Why couldnt the cedar park center host a gun show??

 

[Big country]

The problem I have with this and the problem I see is that there "under cover operation" they had an illegal with a Texas ID/DL buy from Joe schmoe in a private sale. 1) It was a private sale. 2) The illegal had a Texas ID/DL. 3) The guy selling his personal firearm in a personal sale was unlawfully arrested. And my reason why all the transactions must go threw a an FFL holder has already been stated. So I'll say it again, the Texas law says that private transactions are legal there fore arresting someone for a private sale to someone with a Texas ID/DL should not have been arrested. If we say it's okay for all sales to go threw FFL holders then we would willingly give up that right. And I'm far from okay with that. If we allow this right to be taken away then as TR said we start down a slippery slope our rights thrown by the wayside while trying to catch our balance. These little things that I don't even know for sure who is doing what, are setting the stage for an all FFL law or something like it, then the FFL holders get their license renewal denied so no more new firearms purchasing, and after that national registry of the ones we already have and then a national fire arms seizure.and with that our second amendment right to keep and bear arms against an oppressive government. And once the re re's that run this gobment have tricked the populace into giving up their firearms a national round up and extermination. Does no body remember the history of the countries that have had dictators come in a rule the entire country and kill anyone that disagrees with them. This is how such things as the holocaust got started. And I do not want to die on this earth knowing that my generation in their simple mindedness, brain washed by liberal media have screwed this country into the dim future of being rounded up by an oppressive government and thrown off a cliff because they don't fit the agenda of the new world order united socialist states of America or whatever they will call it. And this one little piece of BS can set the precedence for all that to happen. So am I personally affected yeah I think I could safely say that myself and my fellow Americans could be personally affected by this. And I don't care if a land owner or a company that owns a building decides it doesn't want any unlicensed firearms sales on it's property I can vote on that with my wallet, I can spread the word that that company or property owner doesn't support my 2nd A. But the guberman has no business telling them that they can't do something that is legal. And as far as the illegal aliens go if the whining guberment would enforce our immigration laws and quit turning a blind eye to the rape our country by these criminals we wouldn't have to make laws just to keep the illegals from obtaining weapons. They will obtain weapons one way or the other anyway. Our founding fathers wrote the constitution with the idea that the laws would be enforced and if our guberment would do what our tax money pays them to do they wouldn't have to worry about drafting and passing laws to change our constitution instead of just deporting the illegal aliens in the first place. If we got rid of the illegals our own citizens would then be able to come in and take over the jobs that they leave behind, contrary to popular belief. So enforce the immigration laws instead of passing new laws to bypass having to enforce standing laws and we keep our rights along the way. So in conclusion I don't want my rights trampled for the sake of some felon raping this country can feel all warm and fuzzy about getting to run back to where ever it is they came from and live like a king off of my country's wealth without doing a damn thing to benefit it.

 

[RetArmySgt]

The man at the gunshow that supposedly sold to the illegal alien was not arrested and neither was the alien but his firearms collection was seized and yet to be returned.

 

[toyotech]

Has APD released any type of statement in regards to this? Good Grief, whats next?

 

[Major Woody]

They are using illegals as patsies to bring down America and it's laws, hospitals and social structure. From gun shows to hospitals, they are feeding this Communistic agenda, by loading down our states until they go bankrupt, needing a Federal bailout with Commie strings attached. Our voter base is now saturated with socialists to drown out True Americans at the polls to forward the progressive agenda. Next the Haitians will flood us, and all of these people do not want to become Americans, they hate Americans. They have found out how to bring down the Republic; by using our money to bribe the newcomers. The fundamental change.

 

[RetArmySgt]

I say we need to go back to how things used to be. The act of coming into another nation illegally was and act of war and the country that was being invaded by illegals would attack the country from which they came. It is time to get rid of this sanctuary crap and deport every last one of these illegal pieces of crap and build the wall. Once the wall is built line it with rifle toting patriots. The "no ask" policy lapsed in Houston in early Dec and 200,000 of those cockroaches were deported in 2 days, then the new mayor reenacted the damn policy and let them come back.

 

[majormadmax]

Perry confronted on gun shows being shut down by APD / BATFE...

YouTube - Perry on Gunshows being shut down by APD / BATFE

 

[Texas42]

Perry confronted on gun shows being shut down by APD / BATFE...

YouTube - Perry on Gunshows being shut down by APD / BATFE

He just sounds as confused as I am on the facts.

 

[soconor]

I believe HEB owns the property.

 

[kurt]

I believe HEB owns the property.

**Sigh** HEB does not own it, they lease it from Walmart. The Travis County tax records prove it.

 

[majormadmax]

This is from TSRA's (Texas State Rifle Assoc) legislative Director Alice Tripp on the recent Austin Gun Show events....I copied it from the motorcycle forum where I initially heard about this mess...it is an interested development/update...

Cheers! M2

The Story Behind The Gun Show Crises in Austin

Written by Alice Tripp Saturday, 30 January 2010 16:25

Background:

For 13 years Todd Beiter and SAXET Gun Shows held monthly gun shows on private property in North Austin. The first site was on Hwy 290 and that property was eventually sold. The new location, same property managers, was a defunct Sam's Club building in a declining neighborhood on North Lamar. Todd's shows were always filled to capacity with great vendors and Austin Police off-duty officers were visible at the doors and in the parking lot. Austin law enforcement officers are frequent patrons of gun shows.

In October 2009, Todd quit the North Austin site after problems with building management, not with the property owners and not with local law enforcement or the city of Austin. He always expected to return.

Current Situation

Darwin Boedeker from the San Antonio area moved Texas Gun Shows into the Crockett Center-Sam's Club on North Lamar on the heels of the SAXET show's exit. Darwin's monthly show wasn't nearly as large, only about 100+ tables, but it filled the void and gun show life went on.

January 14th I was contacted by a vendor with a table at Texas Gun Shows who forwarded an email received that day from the promoter. The email announced to vendors, "Darwin had a meeting today with the Austin Police Dept. and the ATF. He was instructed that any guns show held in Austin could ONLY have licensed FFL dealers". Later the same day, I was forwarded a follow-up email from Texas Gun Shows to their vendors explaining how private transactions would be held: "..all private transactions must go through an FFL dealer at the show. This is so the gun can be logged in and a background check can be done on the buyer, be it another vendor or public."

Early on Friday, January 15th, Charles Cotton, TSRA's Executive Director himself a knowledgeable lawyer, and I initiated a conference call with Darwin Boedeker of Texas Gun Shows. We asked many question about the previous day's meeting and took careful notes.

The meeting was attended by Mr. Boedeker, the property management person, a representative of the building owner, two Austin Police Detectives with the Nuisance Unit, and an ATF agent. The focus of the meeting was between the building owner and Nuisance Unit due to alleged nuisance calls on the North Lamar property, calls relating to criminal activity. The Nuisance Unit detectives listed 13 "calls for service", tied to gun show weekends over the previous year, at least one every gun show weekend or enough nuisance calls to recommend the property be referred for a nuisance abatement hearing.

The discussion began. The representative from the building owner asked what could be done to allow the gun show to continue. The Austin Police offered a belief that most of the alleged criminal activity; illegal gun sales, straw purchases, etc were a result of private sales by non-FFLs, and they thought allowing only FFLs might help. How should private sales be handled by a private vendor with a table or a walk-in? The ATF agent offered the suggestion of asking an FFL to run background checks for everyone. And everyone agreed.

Darwin Boedeker did not take legal counsel, did not stop the meeting, and did not call TSRA or anyone. He agreed. This conclusion was re-enforced during our conference call.

Later on Friday, I was able to visit on the phone with an Austin police officer who acted as the door guard for SAXET for many years. He explained that BATF agents are in plain clothes at every gun show, nothing new in that. He also explained that BATF agents do not have "peace officer" status in Texas. When the agent is working, local law enforcement is required to be close-by to act as back-up. After years as gun show security he knew of three or four in all, not one a month.

I asked about convictions and was told convictions would be federal and through the federal courts and APD would not necessarily know. How is something illegal if there's no conviction?

The next day, Saturday, January 16th began a gun show weekend. As attendees entered the North Lamar facility they were handed a flier explaining no private sales without a background check. Folks began to be very angry. Who had changed the law changed? When did the law change? Was it the city of Austin, was it President Obama? I was called and asked if Kay Bailey Hutchison did this to somehow embarrass Governor Perry. It was nuts. No one wanted to hear, no one wants to hear, that the promoter complied to suggestions.

On Sunday afternoon, a college student with my cell phone number text messaged me to say someone at the gun show was being arrested. Actually there was no arrest but there was a public display of strength. A private vendor with a table who admittedly buys and sells half a dozen or so firearm in a year without an FFL, sold a handgun for cash to a Hispanic man. The private vendor looked at the young man's driver's license and verified his age and completed the transaction, no background check. He knew the rules for the weekend and sold the gun anyway. APD and BATF arrived saying the young man was "illegal". The vendor was not detained but the five or six guns on his table were confiscated by BATF. The net effect of this public investigation and alleged "bad sale"? The private building owner immediately withdrew his support of the gun show and told Mr. Boedeker he would need to find another location. Also of interest, the state of Texas does not issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens. The seller went through a correct process.

And the pot began to boil.

On Monday, January 18th Darwin Boedeker was a guest on Alex Jones talk-radio program and stories began changing. Now Mr. Boedeker alleged to have been threatened, intimidated, coerced, and forced into accepting terms handed down by BATF and the Austin Police. The building owner was presented to be a turn-coat, the chief of police in Austin portrayed as a liberal from California, the previous promoter was said to have caused all the problems and had been run out of town. Anything but what actually happened!

An Austin-lawyer, Paul Velte, called for polite activists to crash a Perry press conference to force the Governor to "take a stand". The press conference was moved. Later, Velte email rallied to troops to stand by the promoter; as TSRA was doing nothing and NRA was "as usual" silent. Note: Lawyer Velte made no recommendations on what to do or who to sue.

A group of about 100 activists, armed with signs and bull-horns rallied outside the headquarter of APD, accusing APD of being criminals. It stayed peaceful and made the 10:00 news.

As of yesterday, January 30th, Darwin Boedeker and Texas Gun Shows have a new home. Their monthly gun show has relocated to an old Target building in South Austin, still within the Austin city limits. I emailed Texas Gun Shows and asked if the February show at the new location would allow private vendors selling firearms and allow walk-in sellers as per current state and federal law. I was told, "it's business as usual for FFLs or private firearm sales".

On the Texas Gun Show web site, I notice a request for donations to pay legal fees which seems odd, as we know legal advice wasn't sought before or during the Thursday meeting.

Conclusion as of Today~Subject to Change with More Information

#1 Darwin Boedeker of Texas Gun Shows was not the focus of the Thursday, Jan. 14th, meeting. He was not threatened, coerced or intimidated by BATF or the APD. He agreed allowing only FFL sales at his show, a policy more restrictive than federal or state law and which may not be legal or possible. An FFL must enter any commercial firearm transaction into his log and cannot remove that firearm without completing a NICS check. The FFL becomes a part of the transaction.

#2 Only cities, not counties, have nuisance ordinance authority and nuisance ordinances are broad. However, questions are being asked: was the gun show held to a different standard from other nuisance calls to this same property or other property in Austin? The North Lamar property houses flea markets and many other venues and we know neighbors call APD regularly on noise and traffic-related issues.

#3 How many gun-related convictions came out of these "criminal investigations"? Gun crime convictions would be federal convictions. If there is no conviction, can an investigation be considered a nuisance? How is that ethical?

Why weren't the gun show promoters, Beiter or Boedeker, told of problems within their shows, the parking lot, or the neighborhood, and never given an opportunity to self-correct, that is if there was a problem?

Remember, Mr. Bodeker was not the focus of the Thursday meeting, the possible threat was for a nuisance abatement hearing and only the building owner would be involved. Nothing was demanded or required of the gun show, except it might be asked to move.

Finally

The clock has been rolled back for Darwin Boedeker and Texas Gun Shows with their move to a different location. Texas Gun Shows didn't miss a weekend event in Austin.

Who is accountable and who is the victim?

TSRA fought down Legislation in the Texas Legislature over a decade ago to keep this kind of thing from happening at the state level and TSRA was successful. Nothing has passed at the federal level although we have U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, a Democrat majority in Congress, and the most liberal President since FDR, and yet at a meeting on a Thursday in Austin, someone agreed to do what most of us consider, unthinkable.

 

[TexMex247]

Thanks for the update major. Nice to finally hear some facts about the whole situation.

 

[majormadmax]

The bullshit continues. This is on the TGS web site:

*Texas Gun Shows is looking for a NEW BUILDING in the AUSTIN AREA to host our shows in because we have lost our lease to the N. Austin Event Center due the recent "recommendations" by the APD and ATF at our last show!

Seriously, how long to they expect us to believe this crap?