Private Handgun Purchase Bill Of Sale

[AustinN4]

Regarding BOS's

OK, same situation except no BOS - innocent buyer buys a gun that turns out to be stolen, no BOS - outcome in the above situation would be the same, no? So the bigger concern for all of us is being in possession of a stolen gun that we bought and didn't know was stolen?

 

[Shady]

So you are saying that the notary is not a witness with copies of the 2 parties signatures and photo IDs and his seal is not proof that the document is the one he verified signatures on. He does not need to know what was contained in the document.


and on top of that a BOS is just stupid and proof of nothing lol and anyone requiring them, Just wants to feel all warm and fuzzy as they crawl into the safe spot.

Like I said posts have shown where a BOS has hurt someone I would still like to see a real life example where they helped someone over not having one and I might change my view on them.

Regarding notarized signatures;

Notarized only means the signature is verified. What ever else is on the form they notarized isn't relevant to the notary. If I'm not mistaken. They aren't party to or verification of anything but signatures.

Regarding BOS's

True story. From a buyers prespective.
Guy buys gun on a board/forums classifieds much like this one. Lots of us only bought from this group as it was large, state wide, very active, lots of things to buy and very diligent feedback. Pretty good way to limit your chance to get screwed cause you're buying from guys who do lots of trading within the group. Flakes or dishonest people or people skirting laws get caught and blackballed pretty quick.

He, the buyer, was a bill of sale guy and the seller didn't care so they did the deed signed the paper made the exchange. Everyone was happy with a smooth transaction.

Sometime later he gets pulled over, for a traffic violation, and says to the officer I'm armed. Well Arss hole cop takes the gun to run it while treating him like a dangerous armed felon in the process.[a whole different story and topic] Suprise! Gun comes back stolen from years earlier and he arrests the owner, books him on felony of possession or receiving stolen property and 2 days later he gets out on bail.

We tell him keep your mouth shut get a lawyer etc. No he says, i did nothing wrong, I got a bill of sale, the guy I got it from is a board member we all dealt with and he will be stand up and he fully cooperates and points the cops to where he got it and all will be good.

He cooperates with police and they take a copy of his BOS and start the investigation and calls the other guy in to talk. That guy says no I don't recall selling that gun to him or signing a BOS. After back and forth with multiple interviews with the police, with everyone on the board telling him what "winner" of a guy he is, that we all know he sold it to the guy in trouble cause he did it online on a public forum and see here is the thread with the ad and pics of the gun and that the internet is forever he suddenly "remembers" the sale but says that wasn't the gun and he still never signed a BOS and serial number is different.

Case goes to trial. The whole thing plays out on witness stand with everyone getting various forms of cantrecallous except the guy on trial, cause he has a BOS did nothing wrong has integrity and won't lie, and he gets convicted of a felony.

The guy is really a mid 20 something kid who just got phuked but doesn't do prison time cause he has never been in trouble, and I think the judge realised what was going on. Still he is now a convicted felon and prohibited possessor. The best the judge can do is say after years of probation and not getting in trouble he can petition to get his rights back and the judge has no problem do this in his case.

BOS WAS USELESS. Couldn't even wipe his ars with it as it was an exhibit in the trial.

Prosecutor insinuated the BOS was just an attempt to cover possession of a gun he knew was likely stolen cause he admitted to getting a good deal during interview and questioning.

His life if phuked. His BOS was useless. His guns gone. Jobs gone. Car was seized and gone. Chances of good job under the future and even renting decent housing gone.

YMMV. While your BOS may provide a lead to a BATFE trace on a gun you bought then sold that they found involved in a crime it isn't any legal magical cover your ass document. It may also be, I say MAY BE helpful at trial if things go that far.

It may be helpful if you buy a stolen gun to show where you got it. MAY BE.

It is not proof of anything, and if you think it is and that's why you use them, you should reevaluate and understand that it may be useless for your intentions.

You do what you think is best. "You" meaning everyone in general no one specific.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Case goes to trial. The whole thing plays out on witness stand with everyone getting various forms of cantrecallous except the guy on trial, cause he has a BOS did nothing wrong has integrity and won't lie, and he gets convicted of a felony.
.

What word were you going for here?

 

[Bozz10mm]

What word were you going for here?

Not really a word, he means: Can't recall syndrome

 

[Renegade]

Regarding notarized signatures;

Notarized only means the signature is verified. What ever else is on the form they notarized isn't relevant to the notary. If I'm not mistaken. They aren't party to or verification of anything but signatures.

Regarding BOS's

True story. From a buyers prespective.
Guy buys gun on a board/forums classifieds much like this one. Lots of us only bought from this group as it was large, state wide, very active, lots of things to buy and very diligent feedback. Pretty good way to limit your chance to get screwed cause you're buying from guys who do lots of trading within the group. Flakes or dishonest people or people skirting laws get caught and blackballed pretty quick.

He, the buyer, was a bill of sale guy and the seller didn't care so they did the deed signed the paper made the exchange. Everyone was happy with a smooth transaction.

Sometime later he gets pulled over, for a traffic violation, and says to the officer I'm armed. Well Arss hole cop takes the gun to run it while treating him like a dangerous armed felon in the process.[a whole different story and topic] Suprise! Gun comes back stolen from years earlier and he arrests the owner, books him on felony of possession or receiving stolen property and 2 days later he gets out on bail.

We tell him keep your mouth shut get a lawyer etc. No he says, i did nothing wrong, I got a bill of sale, the guy I got it from is a board member we all dealt with and he will be stand up and he fully cooperates and points the cops to where he got it and all will be good.

He cooperates with police and they take a copy of his BOS and start the investigation and calls the other guy in to talk. That guy says no I don't recall selling that gun to him or signing a BOS. After back and forth with multiple interviews with the police, with everyone on the board telling him what "winner" of a guy he is, that we all know he sold it to the guy in trouble cause he did it online on a public forum and see here is the thread with the ad and pics of the gun and that the internet is forever he suddenly "remembers" the sale but says that wasn't the gun and he still never signed a BOS and serial number is different.

Case goes to trial. The whole thing plays out on witness stand with everyone getting various forms of cantrecallous except the guy on trial, cause he has a BOS did nothing wrong has integrity and won't lie, and he gets convicted of a felony.

The guy is really a mid 20 something kid who just got phuked but doesn't do prison time cause he has never been in trouble, and I think the judge realised what was going on. Still he is now a convicted felon and prohibited possessor. The best the judge can do is say after years of probation and not getting in trouble he can petition to get his rights back and the judge has no problem do this in his case.

BOS WAS USELESS. Couldn't even wipe his ars with it as it was an exhibit in the trial.

Prosecutor insinuated the BOS was just an attempt to cover possession of a gun he knew was likely stolen cause he admitted to getting a good deal during interview and questioning.

His life if phuked. His BOS was useless. His guns gone. Jobs gone. Car was seized and gone. Chances of good job under the future and even renting decent housing gone.

YMMV. While your BOS may provide a lead to a BATFE trace on a gun you bought then sold that they found involved in a crime it isn't any legal magical cover your ass document. It may also be, I say MAY BE helpful at trial if things go that far.

It may be helpful if you buy a stolen gun to show where you got it. MAY BE.

It is not proof of anything, and if you think it is and that's why you use them, you should reevaluate and understand that it may be useless for your intentions.

You do what you think is best. "You" meaning everyone in general no one specific.

No part of this story is believable, and for a rgument's sake, even if true, a verified BOS (like you bought it in a gun store), would not change anything.

 

[Renegade]

So you are saying that the notary is not a witness with copies of the 2 parties signatures and photo IDs and his seal is not proof that the document is the one he verified signatures on. He does not need to know what was contained in the document.

The notary only verifies the identity, not the contents of the document, or if the document was executed.

 

[AustinN4]

https://texas.notarypublicunderwrit...authorized-duties-of-a-notary-public-in-texas

 

[benenglish]

Unless it was for bog-standard documents they see all the time, I've never had a notary perform their duties without being intently interested in the contents of the document. When they see something unusual, they aren't shy about their curiosity. At least, that's my experience; it may be entirely due to the fact that I've had some unusual documents notarized.

 

[candcallen]

That goat phuk was in AZ. Scottsdale PD. Absolutely a true story. It was a West German Sig.

The BOS and the fact that he knew where he got it from was useless to him. Beyond that, the gun changed hands on that board a few times over the years. Bought sold and traded amongst the members, and no one thought twice about it and nor could they track it back to try and find an original owner from the board, i.e. who first sold it there. Like I said it was reported stolen at least a few years earlier.

He also had a bad case of assuming everyone was stand up and made mistakes in how he protected his self from the traffic stop on. I think he even turned down a plea offer for a lower misdemeanor charge but I won't swear to that.

The point is a BOS can protect you as much as a order of protection is bullet resistant. They both have their uses but also limitations.

Example, a BOS can or may protect you when buying or selling a car. Operational word is "can" or "may".
If you sell a car and get a BOS you still may have to fight tolls, tickets, impound and storage fees and marks on credit for those things if the buyer does stupid crap with the car after he buys it before it's legally transferred or if never transferred to them. Even if you report it sold. We've all seen the stories.

BOS won't stop receiving or possessing stolen property charges against you if the item was stolen. You can absolutely still be charged with and have to fight those. We hope a BOS will show a prosecutor or police officer were not a criminal or actively knowingly engaging in criminal activity and that they will move on. Still it is not armor against that. Extremely overzealous police or prosecutor with an agenda can seriously screw up your life. Especially anti 2nd amendment activists.

As with most things, dogged rigid positions on either side of this issue are not completely defendable as absolute truths in any eventuality. You can argue them to death.

I dont care either way about signing a BOS. I won't let anyone have info beyond my name and a look at a driver's license and/or carry permit. In today's world it's like playing Russian Roulette with more than one round in the cylinder. It could very easily be very bad for me.

 

[Hoji]

That goat phuk was in AZ. Scottsdale PD. Absolutely a true story. It was a West German Sig.

The BOS and the fact that he knew where he got it from was useless to him. Beyond that, the gun changed hands on that board a few times over the years. Bought sold and traded amongst the members, and no one thought twice about it and nor could they track it back to try and find an original owner from the board, i.e. who first sold it there. Like I said it was reported stolen at least a few years earlier.

He also had a bad case of assuming everyone was stand up and made mistakes in how he protected his self from the traffic stop on. I think he even turned down a plea offer for a lower misdemeanor charge but I won't swear to that.

The point is a BOS can protect you as much as a order of protection is bullet resistant. They both have their uses but also limitations.

Example, a BOS can or may protect you when buying or selling a car. Operational word is "can" or "may".
If you sell a car and get a BOS you still may have to fight tolls, tickets, impound and storage fees and marks on credit for those things if the buyer does stupid crap with the car after he buys it before it's legally transferred or if never transferred to them. Even if you report it sold. We've all seen the stories.

BOS won't stop receiving or possessing stolen property charges against you if the item was stolen. You can absolutely still be charged with and have to fight those. We hope a BOS will show a prosecutor or police officer were not a criminal or actively knowingly engaging in criminal activity and that they will move on. Still it is not armor against that. Extremely overzealous police or prosecutor with an agenda can seriously screw up your life. Especially anti 2nd amendment activists.

As with most things, dogged rigid positions on either side of this issue are not completely defendable as absolute truths in any eventuality. You can argue them to death.

I dont care either way about signing a BOS. I won't let anyone have info beyond my name and a look at a driver's license and/or carry permit. In today's world it's like playing Russian Roulette with more than one round in the cylinder. It could very easily be very bad for me.

In Texas the State has to prove you knew the property was stolen, simply being in possession of it is not a crime.

 

[candcallen]

In Texas the State has to prove you knew the property was stolen, simply being in possession of it is not a crime.

"Knowing" isn't as black and white as it might seem. Well sometimes anyways. You may not know it was stolen but your actions, experience in buying or selling the item in question or details of the sale and your relationship to the other party may be enough for a prosecutor to say you should have known. Again were back to the fact that not every situation is the same and not all are cut and dry.

The only way for a BOS to be the absolute cover for any buying selling or possessing stolen property charges is if it's specifically codified as an affirmative defense.

A BOS, by its self, may not protect you from issues that may arise when a gun you sold is found at a crime scene and the alphabet boys show up for a gun trace. You may or may not need other help in covering your ass.

Like I said Firearm BOS's are not a big deal either way in my opinion. They won't always cover your ass. They are not always useless. They are, however, always guaranteed to drive a spirited debate amongst people who are absolutely positive they are right and others are wrong.

Fun.

 

[AustinN4]

In Texas the State has to prove you knew the property was stolen, simply being in possession of it is not a crime.

Good to know! Can you point me to the citation?

 

[Hoji]

Good to know! Can you point me to the citation?

31.03 spells it out

 

[Charlie]

Sell to honest friends ............. done deal! (if you have honest friends)!

 

[easy rider]

I still say, if you are paranoid go through an FFL. Not only do you get a BOS, you also have a witness.

Not saying I'm paranoid.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

I still say, if you are paranoid go through an FFL. Not only do you get a BOS, you also have a witness.

Not saying I'm paranoid.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you....

 

[easy rider]

Quit looking at me!

 

[Mike_from_Texas]

Big ole’ NOPE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Lunyfringe]

I still say, if you are paranoid go through an FFL. Not only do you get a BOS, you also have a witness.

Not saying I'm paranoid.

More than that, you get an official transfer sanctioned by the federal gov't. Still doesn't check if it's stolen, tho- but someone would have to have done big brass ones to bring something they know is stolen to an FFL for transfer.

 

[benenglish]

... someone would have to have done big brass ones to bring something they know is stolen to an FFL for transfer.

That or not know that it's (reported) stolen.

I have a pistol and a revolver that I bought from my sister. They were awarded to her in her divorce. However, they weren't named in any paperwork. They were covered under the boilerplate "Any undivulged assets are awarded to the other side" language that's in many divorce settlements. My ex-BIL threatened to report them stolen. For all I know, he did.

Now, I like both guns and I'll probably keep them till I'm dead but if I did decide to sell them, I'd go through an FFL. I'd want there to be no question that *I* believed what I was doing was on the up and up.