Right about now would be a bad time to be shopping at the Cielo Vista Mall in El Paso

[Double Naught Spy]

Actually, you have to go back a lot further then that. There have been shootings at schools just about as long as there have been schools in the U.S., but the earliest multiple murder school shooting I could find was in March 26, 1893 in Plain Dealing, Louisiana where two students were killed immediately and two others died later of wounds.

That was a school shooting, no doubt, fairly minor minor by comparison of the likes of Columbine that Darkpreist referenced as being 'major,' or UT, but you are right, it was school shooting. There was a mass school shooting that happened before UT, of course, but my point was to show that mass shootings did not coincide with the prescription of psychoactive drugs as was being suggested. That mass shooting, the first documented in the U.S. where students were shot, was on April 9, 1891, when 70 year old, James Foster fired a shotgun at a group of students in the playground of St. Mary's Parochial School, Newburgh, New York, causing minor injuries to 14 of the students.

However, you are right, there are other school shootings, prior to UT, more than 100 documented school shooting incidents. There are actually several mass shootings prior to Columbine that were pretty "major" as Darkpriest said including one by the National Guard and one by the cops (both in 1970), but there were also several other non-government school mass shootings as well.

 

[Southpaw]

I have had a good experience contacting the ATF when my teen needed to drive to shooting competition practice without me.

They explained what we could do to secure the firearms for the drive and the letter I needed to write and have him take to comply with the youth handgun safety act.

They took a lot of time with me and said that they wished more parents would do as I did.

It was great.

Ultimately what would scare me is that these rules are up for interpretation at any given time and seemingly dependent upon the situation. Personally, I wouldn't want to be the person who gave legal advice to someone who went off, bought a gun and turned out to be prohibited by LE's interpretation of ATF's questions on a 4473 if I wasn't an attorney.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

Looks like Congress amended the gun control act in 2008 to include those exceptions for mental illness commitment. So maybe it’s a patch problem where the initial question wording has been left along and still somewhat contradicts the exceptions?

There is also a NICS improvement act of 2007 that is involved “when a commitment is expunged, or when other criteria are met.” (Www.atf.gov/file/4241/download)

 

[toddnjoyce]

Government forms should be simple enough for an everyday person to understand how to answer.

How they have constructed this question and the exceptions on the 4473 is unacceptable to me and they need to answer to me for that. I don’t want to pay a lawyer, when the government is the one who owes me an explanation on what a prohibited person is.

From a personal and professional standpoint, you are correct in that questions should be plain language understandable.

I would think if you carry any liability to a patient when answering a question like about prohibited persons, a belt and suspenders approach where you have both the ATFs guidance and legal liability guidance would be helpful.

The FAA has a very similar type question that’s even more confusing where every question on the form is limited to the 3 years, but that asks a question that’s says “Do you now, or have you ever....” and gives a list of general problems and/encounters with the law, and this lists exceptions. Applicants routinely have errors with this question and it results in the civil MD performing the exam having to either defer to the FAA, which can take months, or an outright denial, which is usually permanent.

Only a small number of the civil MDs offer a consult first to review the information before hand and work with the applicant to determine acceptability before beginning the live exam.

The FAA gets away with this because flying is a privilege and not a right. There is no way in hell I would ever support some similar type of process being a requirement, routine or otherwise, to exercise a constitutional right.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

Ultimately what would scare me is that these rules are up for interpretation at any given time and seemingly dependent upon the situation. Personally, I wouldn't want to be the person who gave legal advice to someone who went off, bought a gun and turned out to be prohibited by LE's interpretation of ATF's questions on a 4473 if I wasn't an attorney.

Yeah, you are right.

 

[TheMailMan]

Government forms should be simple enough for an everyday person to understand how to answer.

How they have constructed this question and the exceptions on the 4473 is unacceptable to me and they need to answer to me for that. I don’t want to pay a lawyer, when the government is the one who owes me an explanation on what a prohibited person is.

The 4473 is written to a 7th grade level. However that's the OLD 7th grade level, that would be a Masters degree now. The average high school graduate is reading 5th grade level.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

I have a damn master’s degree!

 

[TheMailMan]

So, look. There’s a lot wrong with this.

Who decides if someone is “mentally ill?” Whose diagnosis are we gonna accept, any professional’s?

and which diagnoses are gonna be targeted? All of them?

And what about considering that diagnoses are not static things? Diagnoses do not last forever. Are we all gonna get mandated to have mental health checks each year to make sure we aren’t about to come unglued?

What about if your symptoms get better on a med but you don’t like the medications’ side effects? You HAVE to keep taking it? We take that choice away from people? We mandate treatment for everyone who ever had a mental health condition?

What about remission of symptoms?

Will we put it on MH providers to “predict dangerousness?” (I can tell you right now, I WON’T sign off on that, either way.). If someone IS stupid enough to sign off on that, I am quite sure I would not trust them to be “qualified” do so because they are dumb or cocky enough to think they can accomplish that, accurately.

Are we going to get into “pre-crime” and thought policing?

I'm not going to quote all your posts. Just answer one question for me.

As a mental health professional would you ever recommend someone be institutionalized due to mental health problems.

It's a Yes or No question. Your answer requires no more than three letters.

 

[Texan-in-Training]

Yeah, I'm surprised we don't see more young people on rampages.

Figure I'd offer my "two cents" on the subject...
I think youth in every generation has faced frustration, but at the same time had a lot of opportunities. I'm not young so I can't profess to see things through the eyes of today's youth, but I do think a couple of things might be worth considering...
1) What is an acceptable response to "frustration"? How do you deal with it in ways that aren't destructive?
2) Is "social media" creating not only continual "one sided" feedback for kids having problems coping, but also "sensory overload" making it more difficult to break out of a particular "mind set"?
Easy to ask these questions, can't say I can provide solutions.

 

[Southpaw]

I have a damn master’s degree!

 

[Wildcat Diva]

I'm not going to quote all your posts. Just answer one question for me.

As a mental health professional would you ever recommend someone be institutionalized due to mental health problems.

It's a Yes or No question. Your answer requires no more than three letters.

Would I ever?
Sure!

Whoops, that was four letters, plus punctuation.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

I’ve signed the forms to send people on to Austin State Hospital, when we had patients in the hospital in Lake Jackson Hospital who proved that they couldn’t hang safely in the community.

 

[SQLGeek]

I, in turn, have also been considered weird.

Indeed. To many anti-gun folks, all of us on this forum are psychopaths in their eyes.

Coupled with the fact I grew up playing violent video games and still do on occasion, some would probably like to institutionalize me already.

 

[TheMailMan]

I’ve signed the forms to send people on to Austin State Hospital, when we had patients in the hospital in Lake Jackson Hospital who proved that they couldn’t hang safely in the community.

Ok, so you've answered the question about who decides someone gets put in the loony bin. Your entire rant was meaningless.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

Ok, so you've answered the question about who decides someone gets put in the loony bin. Your entire rant was meaningless.

What are you even talking about?

What question? Quote me, please.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

I never asked that question. I have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[TheDan]

1) What is an acceptable response to "frustration"? How do you deal with it in ways that aren't destructive?
2) Is "social media" creating not only continual "one sided" feedback for kids having problems coping, but also "sensory overload" making it more difficult to break out of a particular "mind set"?
Easy to ask these questions, can't say I can provide solutions.

Solutions are actually pretty easy...
1) Violence is only acceptable in self defense. Best thing you can do is plant a garden. Break the cycle of strip mining future generations by homesteading. Build something of value to leave your kids.
2) Social media promotes negative confirmation bias because that's what gets the most clicks and shares, but social media itself is just a tool. A sick society is using the tool, so it has sick consequences. If you can recognize when your negative emotions are being fed then it doesn't really effect you. If you can't recognize that then turn it off.

 

[Sublime]

As someone who is in the same generation as some of these shooters, you hit the nail on the head. I can't tell you how many times a week I think about everything you just said. Just plays over and over like an infinite loop

Break the cycle. Even if all that was true in every case, was that the reason for the El Paso shooting. Being older, the same frustrations are there. This country is terribly in debt. I will most likely never see a SS payment. The IRS has screwed me over. The county tax assessor has screwed me over. I run into asshats every day at work. It is like the movie Falling Down. Despite a public education, I was able to think for myself and at 18 knew what the hell I wanted to do. At 21 and ever since I have been self sufficient. When govt. is your religion, a nation will fall. I still contend dark days are coming to this country but in the mean time, I still need to live my life and get by. My wife and dog are counting on me. I sometimes think about the things I have done, people I have met, and places I have been and it has been a great ride. I think most of it has to do with our mindset.

Religion is a no no here so I won't say where I got this - Discontentment is natural. Contentment is Super Natural. We find our self worth in not what we own but in whose we are. Also, with these current Red Flag Laws on the horizon, I am reporting you. You are a time bomb waiting to go off.

 

[MTA]

Break the cycle. Even if all that was true in every case, was that the reason for the El Paso shooting. Being older, the same frustrations are there. This country is terribly in debt. I will most likely never see a SS payment. The IRS has screwed me over. The county tax assessor has screwed me over. I run into asshats every day at work. It is like the movie Falling Down. Despite a public education, I was able to think for myself and at 18 knew what the hell I wanted to do. At 21 and ever since I have been self sufficient. When govt. is your religion, a nation will fall. I still contend dark days are coming to this country but in the mean time, I still need to live my life and get by. My wife and dog are counting on me. I sometimes think about the things I have done, people I have met, and places I have been and it has been a great ride. I think most of it has to do with our mindset.

Religion is a no no here so I won't say where I got this - Discontentment is natural. Contentment is Super Natural. We find our self worth in not what we own but in whose we are. Also, with these current Red Flag Laws on the horizon, I am reporting you. You are a time bomb waiting to go off.

I am not worried about me so much as my fellow young white males who are being thrown to the wolves by their parents, the government, etc.

 

[TheMailMan]

What are you even talking about?

What question? Quote me, please.

I never asked that question. I have no clue what you are talking about.

Go back and read posts 183, 189, 190, 206, 210, and 218.

The common thread is who do we want to judge who's mentally ill enough to not be running loose on the streets.

You don't want the legal system to do so. You don't want the mental health system to do so.