Should the police be defunded/dismantled

[avvidclif]

Oldag made my point much better than I could. (Very well said Oldag.) And that is the point. Ever give a child a new toy, then tell them they can't play with their new toy?

Another point I'll add. What is the job of LE departments? To enforce the laws of society and the community. They are OUR representatives that act on our behalf, to enforce the laws that we allow our legislators to make on our behalf. In simple terms, they work for us. Many LE officers and departments seem to have forgotten this. Many seem to have adopted this, Us vs. Them attitude.

LE os about doing a job. To do a job, you use the correct equipment for the job at hand. A clever friend of mine has a saying that I like to use, "If the only tool you have in your toolbelt is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail." You need more than one tool to do various jobs. If all of your officers in a department are taught SWAT tactics and operational theory, and equipped like SWAT members, then they react or operate like a SWAT team of every call they go on.

There is a time for finesse and compassion, and a time for brute force and LE officers need to understand when which is appropriate, and to balance the need to use them. And any person that can't or won't make the distinction between the two probably has no business being in LE in the first place.

Some people might read my posts or comments about LE, and might jump to the conclusion that I have a disdain for LE, and it's officers. They would be quite incorrect. I have had and still have family and friends in LE. My uncle spent 20 years, and retired from the Texas DPS, another uncle who spent over 15 years as a deputy for the Henderson County sheriff's department, and his son, my cousin also spent a number of years at the same department, my half brother is an investigator with the Santa Ana police department, and a cousin that retired after 22 years with the Dallas PD and now is a constable in our county. And a number of friends who were in LE for years, in various different departments. So as youngster growing up, and seeing what I see now, is a totally different attitude towards the job of LE. The mentality of those in LE has drastically changed, and not necessarily for the better I might add.

The mentality of LE has changed, agreed, in response to the change in the way the public treats them. 99% of the public has no problem with LE and respects them (we have a few on here in the other 1%). It's that 1% that has drastically changed. It's the 1% on each side that is the problem for the other 99%. When the 2 1%ers get together you have the George Floyd story.

 

[popsgarland]

I believe there are many police departments that need reform in some form or other, but if politicians are in favor of eliminating police forces, then they should be the first to give up protection from criminal elements.

Politicians, celebrities and most rich folks really don't usually need/use the police because they have their own armed security.

 

[popsgarland]

Nope I would shoot them in the face.


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Is this before or after you were hit in the head with a brick, rock or whatever.

Just something to think about.

 

[Axxe55]

The mentality of LE has changed, agreed, in response to the change in the way the public treats them. 99% of the public has no problem with LE and respects them (we have a few on here in the other 1%). It's that 1% that has drastically changed. It's the 1% on each side that is the problem for the other 99%. When the 2 1%ers get together you have the George Floyd story.

I can actually agree with that. A valid point. There has been a shift in how some of the general public view those in LE. There has been a shift in how LE officers are treated by the public.

Maybe it's generational in this shift in views and opinions towards LE. Maybe parents aren't teaching their children to respect law and order, and to respect those that are in charge to enforce our societies laws.

It's a very good point for discussion for sure.

 

[etmo]

They don't want to spend all that money and time training just to never deploy. So it ends up being used when not truly needed.

Maybe true.

I don't know of any stats on the issue of SWAT team overuse, but it's clear that no one is protesting in the streets because of SWAT teams or their use. It was one cop using a very low-tech thing -- his leg, IIRC.

While we might not have a meeting of the minds on police equipment, it seems we can agree that more investment in the police might help. Axxe55 thinks more training would be beneficial, I think we need that and still more help besides.

andre3k's post above is exactly what I'm talking about -- no cop is going to extend themselves for their community if they can pull back and not draw negative attention. They know that they will be thrown under the bus by politicians who just pander to the lowest common denominator to get re-elected.

And so as the police pull back, the criminals come forward. This time; however, the police aren't going to rush back in to stop them. It's too risky. We'll see how the social worker approach does against MS-13; get your popcorn ready.

 

[Axxe55]

Maybe true.

I don't know of any stats on the issue of SWAT team overuse, but it's clear that no one is protesting in the streets because of SWAT teams or their use. It was one cop using a very low-tech thing -- his leg, IIRC.

While we might not have a meeting of the minds on police equipment, it seems we can agree that more investment in the police might help. Axxe55 thinks more training would be beneficial, I think we need that and still more help besides.

andre3k's post above is exactly what I'm talking about -- no cop is going to extend themselves for their community if they can pull back and not draw negative attention. They know that they will be thrown under the bus by politicians who just pander to the lowest common denominator to get re-elected.

And so as the police pull back, the criminals come forward. This time; however, the police aren't going to rush back in to stop them. It's too risky. We'll see how the social worker approach does against MS-13; get your popcorn ready.

Proper training is the key factor. Teaching officer when and where to use certain types of training. I believe that having the proper training, and the tools needed to do a job, are vital regardless of the profession. LE being no different than any other profession.

We do need reform as well. Holding officers accountable for their actions. Part of that reform should be elimination of police unions. Too many times they protect officers, who maybe should not be protected and allowed to remain on the job as a LE officer. Departments having transparency in dealing with complaints about LE officers. Also having the community involved in the way these complaints are handled. Too many times, with complaints, they are handled in-house and nothing ever really changes, until we end up with a George Floyd situation. Maybe, just maybe if someone had checked Derek Chauvin, at the point of some of the earlier complaints against him, maybe George Floyd might be alive today. Bit the point is, those complaints need to be taken seriously, and evaluated as to whether they are legitimate or bogus.

No-Knock warrants need to be eliminated as well. Too many times, LE officers serving these types of warrants have gotten them way wrong, ending with injuries and deaths for innocent civilians. That is unacceptable. And the really bad part here with no-knock warrants, is no one is being held responsible or accountable for when they do go wrong. That too is unacceptable.

 

[Charlie]

I can actually agree with that. A valid point. There has been a shift in how some of the general public view those in LE. There has been a shift in how LE officers are treated by the public.

Maybe it's generational in this shift in views and opinions towards LE. Maybe parents aren't teaching their children to respect law and order, and to respect those that are in charge to enforce our societies laws.

It's a very good point for discussion for sure.

Define "general public" as used in your post/s above.

 

[Axxe55]

Define "general public" as used in your post/s above.

The vast majority of the population. Society or the community in general.

 

[Charlie]

So that includes police officers as well as criminals, right?

 

[jrbfishn]

Part of the problem is "zero tolerance".
Kids are tought in schools, and other places, that if the victim fights back or even just refuses to be a victim that they get equal punishment. That there is no more consequence to being an aggressor, or criminal, versus being a victim or non- criminal.
If the consequences are the same for both right and wrong, why bother with right?

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[jrbfishn]

I can actually agree with that. A valid point. There has been a shift in how some of the general public view those in LE. There has been a shift in how LE officers are treated by the public.

Maybe it's generational in this shift in views and opinions towards LE. Maybe parents aren't teaching their children to respect law and order, and to respect those that are in charge to enforce our societies laws.

It's a very good point for discussion for sure.

Define "general public" as used in your post/s above.

It's not so much the general public as it is the part of the general public that LE deals with the most.
Part of that perception is that the ones they deal with the most have the least respect for the rule of law. That tends to cloud your perception and your actions.
Another part is that a lot of departments are desperate for personel. Enog so that the few bad will be put up with just to have somthing instead of nothing. The sad fact is, in many cases it is impossible to tell the good from the bad until they hit the street. Until it becomes better to get rid of the bad ones instead of keeping them to have something, there is no incentive to get rid of them unless given no choice.
Generally, having something vs nothing is better
This is one of the few things I can think of where having something vs nothing is equally as bad. If nt worse in the long run.


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[Axxe55]

So that includes police officers as well as criminals, right?

I don't count criminals as being a part of the general public, since they choose to live outside the norms of society and not follow the rules and laws that society has deemed necessary to be civilized and productive.

 

[mdf9183]

I think the real problem is that no one wants to be held accountability for their actions anymore. It is all someone else's fault. usually Trumps.

 

[Axxe55]

It's not so much the general public as it is the part of the general public that LE deals with the most.
Part of that perception is that the ones they deal with the most have the least respect for the rule of law. That tends to cloud your perception and your actions.
Another part is that a lot of departments are desperate for personel. Enog so that the few bad will be put up with just to have somthing instead of nothing. The sad fact is, in many cases it is impossible to tell the good from the bad until they hit the street. Until it becomes better to get rid of the bad ones instead of keeping them to have something, there is no incentive to get rid of them unless given no choice.
Generally, having something vs nothing is better
This is one of the few things I can think of where having something vs nothing is equally as bad. If nt worse in the long run.


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I have to disagree with you to a point. In our local area, in the past few dealings I have had with our local LE departments, and not from me breaking any laws, but as tax paying, law abiding citizen, my encounters local LE have been less than pleasant to say the least. Their attitudes and demeanors less than professional to say the least. Almost to say adversarial might be a better way to describe those encounters.

So one might wonder exactly how they are dealing with people who do run afoul of the law occasionally.

I still contend, that how they deal with the public matters a lot. They need to understand, that sometimes they are going to deal with ordinary and average people at maybe some of the worst times of their lives. Remember, people are human, and make mistakes. Sometimes, those mistakes are criminal, and in those times, they will be dealing with LE officers. Exactly how many of us are perfect, have never made a mistake, or broken a law at some point in their lives? None of us.

 

[RoadRunner]

 

[popsgarland]

Just read that Houston passed a budget that increases police funding, amid calls to 'Defund'.

 

[Coop45]

I think that there is a segment of the public who love to antagonize the police and like to whine about what happens then. Rule #1. Don't screw with the guy with handcuffs unless you are into that fetish.

 

[popsgarland]

I posted this in another thread. Don't know if it was the correct one or not, so I'm going to put it here also.

In 1933 Hitler appointed Hermann Goring Minister of the Interior.
His first orders were to defund and eliminate the police departments
so that they would not interfere with his Brown(Black) Shirts whose
mission it was to riot, burn, beat up and kill citizens in an effort to sway the elections.

This is now happening in every state in the union and most states and cities by the Black Shirts (ANTIFA) and are
governed by the DUM ASS RATS AND/OR LEFTEST. Seattle is just a start and if it continues,
I do believe we are in for another Civil War.

 

[oldag]

Minneapolis city council unanimously passed a resolution to pursue a community-led public safety system to replace the police department. The city council will begin a year-long process of engaging “with every willing community member in Minneapolis” to come up with a new public safety model.

That should be interesting.

 

[seeker_two]

Community.

In the past, peace officers lived in the same communities where they worked. They knew the residents. They participated in the activities. They were the friends and neighbors of the community. And the community embraced them as a part of itself.

Then, something changed. Communities got huge. Neighbors stopped knowing each other. Governments passed unpopular laws and regulations and made the police the unpopular face of their enforcement. And cops, no longer feeling part of the community, created one exclusively of law enforcement officers....because no one else can understand LEOs like LEOs. Soon, LEOs felt it was them against the world. Not long after, the world realized that, too. Now, we have cultures clashing instead of cooperating.

Solution? Nothing easy. We need to bring the LEO community back into the general community. And we need to get rid of the laws that put LEOs at odds with the community. Most importantly, we need to respect the LEOs as individuals....praise the good....condemn the bad....but don't treat them like a group, but as a person.


....come to think of it, that pretty much works for everyone.

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