Should the police be defunded/dismantled

[Wodon43]

More like the politicians who need to be defunded/dismantled

 

[andre3k]

Some reform is needed . Chauvin had 18 complaints against him. Not saying they all had merit. However how many complaints would you be allowed to get before you were fired.

Every dept is different in how they categorize complaints. I can only speak for my dept, but we get less than 250 complaints per year from citizens out of about 2 million citizen interactions per year. However 1000 complaints per year are generated internally. Those internal complaints can range from losing a police ID, at fault accidents, to excessive force complaints. However, 18 complaints would be a lot, even for my dept. I would say 5 -10 would be in the normal range for a 20 year career, maybe slightly higher if you were a worker that put a lot of crooks in jail.

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[Coop45]

Actually, those neighborhoods are the first ones the police should stop patrolling due to the budget constraints. But in the interest of open records, they should announce on facebook exactly which neighborhoods they will not be patrolling and how long the response times may be as a result.



Police in the 70's were also allowed to shoot people instead of trying to chase them down. Go watch any cop show from the 70's and in every episode, you'll hear someone yell "stop, or I'll shoot", followed by several gun shots. It was part of life back then. Now it's headed back to where it was when Obama was in office fanning the race hate flames with cops getting scared to have any confrontation with a black individual, and instead just respond after the fact to take a report.

So crime goes up so cops don't get any more negative media attention. Cops are getting in trouble for tear gas and rubber bullets today. That's a far cry from stop or I'll shoot.

Wasn't like that here. No gunfire incoming or outgoing. There were a couple of police killed on duty over the years, but most died of old age.

 

[Axxe55]

Every dept is different in how they categorize complaints. I can only speak for my dept, but we get less than 250 complaints per year from citizens out of about 2 million citizen interactions per year. However 1000 complaints per year are generated internally. Those internal complaints can range from losing a police ID, at fault accidents, to excessive force complaints. However, 18 complaints would be a lot, even for my dept. I would say 5 -10 would be in the normal range for a 20 year career, maybe slightly higher if you were a worker that put a lot of crooks in jail.

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But even if just a fourth of those complaints were valid, I think one could, or should assume that officer is a problem, or has a problem, and either needs to be counseled, or fired.

 

[popper]

Actually sometimes they do, as they often are outgunned by the bad guys. But yea, showing up for warrent service in SWAT vehicle is a little much - but ou never know who/what you might run into.

 

[Axxe55]

I already did
In the link in the post you quoted

Isolated incidences. Show us where it happens on a daily basis, or a weekly basis, or even a monthly basis of criminals using automatic weapons.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

At this moment, I think SWAT and their BearCat's something necessary to clean out antifa/blm scum.....if they only would....

 

[etmo]

Isolated incidences. Show us where it happens on a daily basis, or a weekly basis, or even a monthly basis of criminals using automatic weapons.

Frequent occurrence is not required for parity to be demanded, and I think I can show that you agree with me.

Is your home attacked on a daily or weekly basis? No, but you have a gun for home protection, don't you? Probably more than just one!
Do you get into car accidents every single week? No, but you have car insurance, don't you?
Etc
Etc

It's not the frequency, it's the consequences.

 

[Axxe55]

Frequent occurrence is not required for parity to be demanded, and I think I can show that you agree with me.

Is your home attacked on a daily or weekly basis? No, but you have a gun for home protection, don't you? Probably more than just one!
Do you get into car accidents every single week? No, but you have car insurance, don't you?
Etc
Etc

It's not the frequency, it's the consequences.

So you want to live in militarized police-state? I don't. Are officers who are trained in SWAT tactics necessary? Yes they are, but not every podunk hicksville town needs or wants them.

 

[Hoji]

THEY DON'T NEED TANKS & MILATARY EQUIMENT

Looking at , WA,MN, CA, NY etc, I would say that the argument could be made that they do.

That being said, I do not think the Mustang Ridge PD has any business with surplus M-14s.

 

[Hoji]

Should Police be de-funded / dismantled?

Absolutely Not!
When I was a teenager in Chicago, I had a bumper sticker that said: "Do you hate cops? Next time you have trouble, call a HIPPIE!"
That says it all for me!

Flash

Glad to see you’re still around! How’s Jake?

 

[makarovmike]

**** the liberals we can fund them with private donations!

 

[Charlie]

We need a police force. Period. If someone here thinks we don't, please move to a place that don't have police.

 

[etmo]

So you want to live in militarized police-state? I don't. Are officers who are trained in SWAT tactics necessary? Yes they are, but not every podunk hicksville town needs or wants them.

Police state has nothing to do with the equipment the police have. A police state is "a totalitarian state controlled by a political police force that secretly supervises the citizens' activities".

Having a few SWAT officers is cute, but it doesn't help the average cop responding to a call who gets shot just because he's wearing the uniform by some gang-banger.

These days the average cops needs a ballistic vest (and other gear that some might consider militarized) just to avoid getting murdered. Plenty of Antifa lunatics would love to kill cops, and the headlines of the past 2 weeks contain the proof.

The police can be properly equipped (my point) AND not allowed to rule our society (your point). These are not mutually exclusive things.

 

[oldag]

Police state has nothing to do with the equipment the police have. A police state is "a totalitarian state controlled by a political police force that secretly supervises the citizens' activities".

Having a few SWAT officers is cute, but it doesn't help the average cop responding to a call who gets shot just because he's wearing the uniform by some gang-banger.

These days the average cops needs a ballistic vest (and other gear that some might consider militarized) just to avoid getting murdered. Plenty of Antifa lunatics would love to kill cops, and the headlines of the past 2 weeks contain the proof.

The police can be properly equipped (my point) AND not allowed to rule our society (your point). These are not mutually exclusive things.

Theoretically true.

But in practice, for instance, when a department has a SWAT team the tendency (not always, but at times) is to want to utilize it. They don't want to spend all that money and time training just to never deploy. So it ends up being used when not truly needed.

How many situations truly call for an armored vehicle? Rather than militarize the police department, would not a better solution to be having agreements with the National Guard to borrow their equipment on those extremely rare occasions? Or to have the DPS posses a few strategically placed vehicles to bring in?

And I don't buy the "why do you have a gun when it may never be needed" analogy. No harm exists with law abiding citizens owning or carrying guns. Problems can come from militarized police forces.

I don't think anyone here is saying police should not be able to wear vests.

 

[jrbfishn]

MAD.
Too many have lost sight of the goal. It's like MAD. The gal was NOT to NEED it.
We have the capability to destroy anyone or everyone. We have the training. But the goal is to not use just because we can.
The goal of having the equipment and training by the police SHOULD be to deter the need to use the training and equipment except in the most dire of circumstances. Then very judiciously.
I agree. There needs to be reform. But not because most cops are bad. They're NOT. Most LE wish they were not needed. Most of them train hoping not to need to use that training.
The problem is that there are too many in leadership of LE that think the goal is to use the power they have to show they have it. Instead of having it hopeing to not need to use it.
Clear lines need to be drawn on use of force and accountability including chief of police, city councils, mayors and judges. Not just the street cops. Unless they are held accountable legally for what the people under them do, no matter how few the bad ones are, it will never end. Possibly only get worse.


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[Axxe55]

Police state has nothing to do with the equipment the police have. A police state is "a totalitarian state controlled by a political police force that secretly supervises the citizens' activities".

Having a few SWAT officers is cute, but it doesn't help the average cop responding to a call who gets shot just because he's wearing the uniform by some gang-banger.

These days the average cops needs a ballistic vest (and other gear that some might consider militarized) just to avoid getting murdered. Plenty of Antifa lunatics would love to kill cops, and the headlines of the past 2 weeks contain the proof.

The police can be properly equipped (my point) AND not allowed to rule our society (your point). These are not mutually exclusive things.

Oldag made my point much better than I could. (Very well said Oldag.) And that is the point. Ever give a child a new toy, then tell them they can't play with their new toy?

Another point I'll add. What is the job of LE departments? To enforce the laws of society and the community. They are OUR representatives that act on our behalf, to enforce the laws that we allow our legislators to make on our behalf. In simple terms, they work for us. Many LE officers and departments seem to have forgotten this. Many seem to have adopted this, Us vs. Them attitude.

LE os about doing a job. To do a job, you use the correct equipment for the job at hand. A clever friend of mine has a saying that I like to use, "If the only tool you have in your toolbelt is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail." You need more than one tool to do various jobs. If all of your officers in a department are taught SWAT tactics and operational theory, and equipped like SWAT members, then they react or operate like a SWAT team of every call they go on.

There is a time for finesse and compassion, and a time for brute force and LE officers need to understand when which is appropriate, and to balance the need to use them. And any person that can't or won't make the distinction between the two probably has no business being in LE in the first place.

Some people might read my posts or comments about LE, and might jump to the conclusion that I have a disdain for LE, and it's officers. They would be quite incorrect. I have had and still have family and friends in LE. My uncle spent 20 years, and retired from the Texas DPS, another uncle who spent over 15 years as a deputy for the Henderson County sheriff's department, and his son, my cousin also spent a number of years at the same department, my half brother is an investigator with the Santa Ana police department, and a cousin that retired after 22 years with the Dallas PD and now is a constable in our county. And a number of friends who were in LE for years, in various different departments. So as youngster growing up, and seeing what I see now, is a totally different attitude towards the job of LE. The mentality of those in LE has drastically changed, and not necessarily for the better I might add.

 

[Axxe55]

MAD.
Too many have lost sight of the goal. It's like MAD. The gal was NOT to NEED it.
We have the capability to destroy anyone or everyone. We have the training. But the goal is to not use just because we can.
The goal of having the equipment and training by the police SHOULD be to deter the need to use the training and equipment except in the most dire of circumstances. Then very judiciously.
I agree. There needs to be reform. But not because most cops are bad. They're NOT. Most LE wish they were not needed. Most of them train hoping not to need to use that training.
The problem is that there are too many in leadership of LE that think the goal is to use the power they have to show they have it. Instead of having it hopeing to not need to use it.
Clear lines need to be drawn on use of force and accountability including chief of police, city councils, mayors and judges. Not just the street cops. Unless they are held accountable legally for what the people under them do, no matter how few the bad ones are, it will never end. Possibly only get worse.


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Another great response JRB. Well said.

Training. I think that is huge factor in the way officers respond and react to various situations.

Some might surmise that being a LE officer is a dangerous profession. Some might argue that it's a deadly profession to get into, and that is why many officers react to some situations like they do. Thing is, being in LE isn't the most dangerous job. There are other professions that a person is much more likely to be killed or injured, than being a LE officer.

https://www.ajc.com/business/employ...angerous-jobs-america/x2MOTeEYCgkt2zYCLfqfJJ/

And if this fear of being killed, or injured, on the job is so overwhelming, that it's a criteria of how an officer reacts, or responds in dealing with the general public in the course of his duties, then I feel that person should seriously think about a career change, or not entering in LE in the first place. Being in LE isn't for everyone.

 

[andre3k]

Officers are pulling back, I've seen it with my own squad. It's the Ferguson Effect all over again. Do just enough to keep your supervisor off your back but going the extra mile to get crooks off the street is over with. It's about career longevity for those are just trying to lock in their pension and move on to greener pastures.

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[Axxe55]

Officers are pulling back, I've seen it with my own squad. It's the Ferguson Effect all over again. Do just enough to keep your supervisor off your back but going the extra mile to get crooks off the street is over with. It's about career longevity for those are just trying to lock in their pension and move on to greener pastures.

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I have seen the same in many other professions, not just LE. In some ways, it's "burn-out" and when it happens, it's time to make a change, into something differnet, or maybe even a totally different career field.