Tacticool vs knowing your stuff

[PRE-K]

9mm. For some reason they are convinced that size doesn't matter.

General consensus is to use the largest caliber you can shoot quickly and accurately, no?

 

[PhulesAu]

9mm. For some reason they are convinced that size doesn't matter.

For those who have never needed it to matter, for the most part.

 

[Se7en62]

It's rude to make fun of handicaps. It wasn't the gear that made him suck. That guy in the video seems to be blind in at least his right eye, possibly both.

 

[Se7en62]

DP

 

[StevenC.]

What am I misunderstanding?

Under the stress of a life or death situation is anyone daring to claim the paltry 0.048" difference from center of shot to outside edge between a 9mm and a .45 matters? Seriously think about that- it's less than 1/2 of 1/10 of a frickin' inch?

Yeah, I know that is the un-expanded bullet size (.355 v. .451)

In luckygunners findings, the difference between the best .45 expansion and 9mm expansion was .85" v. .70" or a sad 0.075" inch difference.

Forgive me for thinking there are far more important things than 0.075". Not once can we point to a shot which landed within .074" in order to say, "Damn, I wish I had a shot that fool with a .45 so that I could have gotten that additional seventy-five thousands of an inch."

I got some sarcasm, too.

 

[Big Dipper]

What am I misunderstanding?

Under the stress of a life or death situation is anyone daring to claim the paltry 0.048" difference from center of shot to outside edge between a 9mm and a .45 matters? Seriously think about that- it's less than 1/2 of 1/10 of a frickin' inch?

Yeah, I know that is the un-expanded bullet size (.355 v. .451)

In luckygunners findings, the difference between the best .45 expansion and 9mm expansion was .85" v. .70" or a sad 0.075" inch difference.

Forgive me for thinking there are far more important things than 0.075". Not once can we point to a shot which landed within .074" in order to say, "Damn, I wish I had a shot that fool with a .45 so that I could have gotten that additional seventy-five thousands of an inch."

I got some sarcasm, too.

That is still a 27% increase in diameter! And for standard loads a 19% increase in muzzle energy.

Those are both significant differences. I for one would be very happy with a 27% increase in my annual income, whether it were only $35,500 or $3,550,000!

 

[TX69]

The industry has done an excellent job conditioning many of us that we need that tactical stuff. I am really not trying to make fun of the dude, he fell into the marketing hype. How many of us have 5.11's, vests, and carry pockets full of 'tactical" stuff that does nothing towards making us more competent?

The young lady has had some training. She has ignored (or not been exposed to) the marketing. She has, instead, invested her money in training.

I hope this makes some of us think. It has me.

I think the guy also fell under the pressure of the environment that he was in and possibly some when shooting against a woman. When I take my wife to the range she gets to see first hand all of the turds and their equipment attempting to act and look tacticool. Its always a learning event for the both of us as I try to explain to her what these turds are up to and what they may be trying to accomplish. Their true colors always surface when my little wife shoots a ragged hole in the target with her 45acp. When they start to talk with their buddies and run out another target she will wait until they are ready to fire and run her target out, 5 to 7 feet further than theirs, and plug all ten rounds in the center. I love my wife.

 

[Younggun]

That is still a 27% increase in diameter! And for standard loads a 19% increase in muzzle energy.

Those are both significant differences. I for one would be very happy with a 27% increase in my annual income, whether it were only $35,500 or $3,550,000!

That's why I carry .22 TCM. 6.5% more muzzle energy than .45 ACP.


Sent from my HAL 9000

 

[Se7en62]

What am I misunderstanding?

Under the stress of a life or death situation is anyone daring to claim the paltry 0.048" difference from center of shot to outside edge between a 9mm and a .45 matters? Seriously think about that- it's less than 1/2 of 1/10 of a frickin' inch?

Yeah, I know that is the un-expanded bullet size (.355 v. .451)

In luckygunners findings, the difference between the best .45 expansion and 9mm expansion was .85" v. .70" or a sad 0.075" inch difference.

What is your arguement? I was commenting on the guy's crap shooting in the video.

Have you thought about the force multiplier behind that .075" as being exponential? A 230gr .45 ACP versus a 115gr 9mm is exactly twice the weight, traveling at 900ft/s versus 1,300ft/s respectively; That's TWICE the mass at 2/3 the velocity, which equates to greater kinetic energy...period.

I like shooting .45. I feel like if you need more than 8 rounds to down a target, buy a double stack gun or learn better weapon control so that your muscle memory can compensate for the stress, or your shooting confidence can reduce the anxiety.

If you want to shoot higher velocity for flater shooting at longer range targets, then shoot 185gr .45 ACP at 1,225ft/s, instead of 230gr at 900ft/s, the loss of bullet weight is made up in spades by the impact force.

 

[Younggun]

What is your arguement? I was commenting on the guy's crap shooting in the video.

Have you thought about the force multiplier behind that .075" as being exponential? A 230gr .45 ACP versus a 115gr 9mm is exactly twice the weight, traveling at 900m/s versus 1,300m/s respectively; That's TWICE the mass at 2/3 the velocity, which equates to greater kinetic energy...period.

I like shooting .45. I feel like if you need more than 8 rounds to down a target, buy a double stack gun or learn better weapon control so that your muscle memory can compensate for the stress, or your shooting confidence can reduce the anxiety.

If you want to shoot higher velocity for flater shooting at longer range targets, then shoot 185gr .45 ACP at 1,225m/s, instead of 230gr at 900m/s, the loss of bullet weight is made up in spades by the impact force.

Damn, I want to know what loads are being used to push a 230gr .45 ACP to 900 meters per second. I'd be very interested in the 1300 meter per second 9mm load as well!


Sent from my HAL 9000

 

[SC-Texas]

Rail gun

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[Se7en62]

Damn, I want to know what loads are being used to push a 230gr .45 ACP to 900 meters per second. I'd be very interested in the 1300 meter per second 9mm load as well!


Sent from my HAL 9000

I was catching "stop fucking with your phone and watch the movie" looks from my wife while I typed that post. I meant ft/s.

Rail gun

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Hahaha!

 

[SIG_Fiend]

Have you thought about the force multiplier behind that .075" as being exponential? A 230gr .45 ACP versus a 115gr 9mm is exactly twice the weight, traveling at 900ft/s versus 1,300ft/s respectively; That's TWICE the mass at 2/3 the velocity, which equates to greater kinetic energy...period.

Kinetic energy, for the most part, doesn't matter. I'm speaking in terms of common defensive pistol calibers (9/40/45/38/357, etc.). The whole "energy dump" thing is effectively a non-issue. The "energy" doesn't incapacitate, it is damage/destruction of vital organs and/or sufficient blood loss that physically incapacitates. There are other factors of course, where the extra mass could potentially have a benefit, such as better penetration of intermediate barriers. In terms of pure ballistic damage to the human body though, not really a substantial difference.

The thing I think a lot of people overlook is their performance capability? How fast can you shoot? How accurately can you shoot? How accurately can you shoot at speed? The general rule is, if you're not measuring, your speed can be faster. It has been my experience, based on the average shooter seen at most ranges, that the average person likely doesn't quite have the grip strength to effectively extract the same degree of performance from many .45acp (or even .40sw in many cases) guns as they could with a comparable 9mm gun. There's a significant difference in recoil and muzzle flip. For anyone with respectable grip strength, it's often simply not an issue, and that is totally fine. I do think that, given the average shooter and the preponderance of a lack of grip strength, I would warrant a guess that the average shooter will likely be able to achieve better overall performance with greater confidence, with a sub .40 caliber round (9mm, .38spl, etc.). Although these are simply educated guesses, based on my own potentially biased personal experience, I would say they're probably in the ballpark.

Just looking at grip strength alone, to put things in perspective, the average department store grip trainer is typically a ~20-30# pull. Even an entry level professional grip trainer, such as one from Captains of Crush, tends to start around a 60-100# pull. I can't even tell you how many people I've handed the entry level Captains of Crush Trainer (100#) to, that aren't even remotely close to being able to close it.

 

[StevenC.]

That is still a 27% increase in diameter! And for standard loads a 19% increase in muzzle energy.

Those are both significant differences. I for one would be very happy with a 27% increase in my annual income, whether it were only $35,500 or $3,550,000!

I may have not communicated the though completely. That hole, that pathetic hole only matters if it hits something important (heart, spine, brain, major artery). The because the hole by it'self ain't what is stopping a threat.

The only reason to want a hole 0.85" in diameter over one 0.70" is so that maybe you hit something important. But a shot with a .45 in the same place as the 9mm only gives you 1/2 of the diameter (the radius) increased chance of hitting something missed-- 0.15". Hoping you get within so that 0.075" hits something is called relying on luck. It's far more important to shoot better than delude oneself into thinking that 0.15" really matters.

Concerning math games. 27% increase as discussed with bullet holes is more like a $0.70 bi-monthly salary- you were getting $0.70, now yer getting $0.85, except you only see it half of it in play on each paycheck... 7 cents. Spend it wisely.

 

[StevenC.]

What is your arguement?

See above. That the difference, the real difference between a 9mm and .45 isn't worth defending. Shoot well...

I was commenting on the guy's crap shooting in the video.

My post followed yours, did not reference your post.

 

[StevenC.]

Kinetic energy, for the most part, doesn't matter. I'm speaking in terms of common defensive pistol calibers (9/40/45/38/357, etc.). The whole "energy dump" thing is effectively a non-issue. The "energy" doesn't incapacitate, it is damage/destruction of vital organs and/or sufficient blood loss that physically incapacitates. There are other factors of course, where the extra mass could potentially have a benefit, such as better penetration of intermediate barriers. In terms of pure ballistic damage to the human body though, not really a substantial difference.

The thing I think a lot of people overlook is their performance capability? How fast can you shoot? How accurately can you shoot? How accurately can you shoot at speed? The general rule is, if you're not measuring, your speed can be faster. It has been my experience, based on the average shooter seen at most ranges, that the average person likely doesn't quite have the grip strength to effectively extract the same degree of performance from many .45acp (or even .40sw in many cases) guns as they could with a comparable 9mm gun. There's a significant difference in recoil and muzzle flip. For anyone with respectable grip strength, it's often simply not an issue, and that is totally fine. I do think that, given the average shooter and the preponderance of a lack of grip strength, I would warrant a guess that the average shooter will likely be able to achieve better overall performance with greater confidence, with a sub .40 caliber round (9mm, .38spl, etc.). Although these are simply educated guesses, based on my own potentially biased personal experience, I would say they're probably in the ballpark.

Just looking at grip strength alone, to put things in perspective, the average department store grip trainer is typically a ~20-30# pull. Even an entry level professional grip trainer, such as one from Captains of Crush, tends to start around a 60-100# pull. I can't even tell you how many people I've handed the entry level Captains of Crush Trainer (100#) to, that aren't even remotely close to being able to close it.

All this, and...

 

[Se7en62]

All this, and...

View attachment 36746

You can shoot a 185gr .45 ACP at over 1,200fps...that's over 600lb/ft of energy.

As for the arguement the other guy stated that the force is not what kills...I beg to differ. Watch the slow motion wound channel expensive and collapse and tell me kinetic energy is nit the leading cause of internal hemorage and survival sequential bleed out through the wound channel.

 

[TheDan]

Watch the slow motion wound channel expensive and collapse and tell me kinetic energy is nit the leading cause of internal hemorage and survival sequential bleed out through the wound channel.

Those huge cavitation channels you see are from rifle rounds. Pistols just don't have the velocity needed to do that sort of damage. Maybe 22tcm or 5.7...

 

[Younggun]

Told ya, 22 TCM>.45 ACP


Sent from my HAL 9000

 

[Se7en62]

Those huge cavitation channels you see are from rifle rounds. Pistols just don't have the velocity needed to do that sort of damage. Maybe 22tcm or 5.7...

Well, a 185gr .45 ACP will leave a permanent wound channel with about a 1.5" diameter and a good 7-8" in depth. That doesn't include the temporary cavity created upon impact that collapses into this permanent channel.