Taking a Stand!!

[diesel1959]

I’m not arguing for either side. I would just hope a solution can be worked out
As for political correctness - suffice to say you would lose the bet.




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A solution CAN be worked out. The NFL and owners can sack up, set an iron-clad rule that if players chose to be on the field during the anthem, they must stand respectfully. If they can't bring themselves to do that, then stay in the locker room or tunnel. Done. That's called workplace rule-making and it's a fact of life. Put on your big boy pants and deal.

 

[diesel1959]

As for political correctness - suffice to say you would lose the bet.

IMO the current confrontational actions of both the players and the NFL is not solving the problem.



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the only "problem" is the wishy-washy" waffling of the NFL and owners. Make a rule and stick to it. It doesn't require asking "mother-may-I" to the NFLPA for permission.

 

[diesel1959]

Not quite true. Slavery is alive and well in Africa and the Middle East.

There are people here in the US right now who's parents or grandparents were slaves in those areas.

We don't control Africa or the Middle East. We're busy making AMERICA great again.

 

[satx78247]

I hate when I hear things like America did this and America done this. America implies "every American". It was a very small percentage of Americans that bought and owned slaves. Most people, Americans, in the era of slavery didn't have anything to do with slavery. It was many more Americans that ended slavery in America. It's the leftist narrative that places the blame on all white Americans for slavery, when in fact the vast majority of white Americans was either against or indifferent to slavery. Certainly there were black activists against slavery at that time, but they couldn't have ended it on their own. America had slavery? Yes, but Americans also ended slavery in America.

easy rider,

ONLY about 6-8% of Americans were EVER in the flesh trade, Further, the percentage of slavers was about equal in the North & South.
(Shipping records out of New England indicate that slaver's ships were still trying to land their human cargo a MONTH after Richmond fell.)
When the WBTS was over, those same New England slavers sold their slaves into areas where slavery was still legal.

It was the BRITISH Navy's ANTI-SLAVERY PATROLS, rather than the Union army/navy, that finally (thankfully) ended slavery into the Western Hemisphere from Africa about 1875.

Our extended family has been in SC, GA, AL, MS, LA & TX since the early 1600s, when my mother's side of our family was BANISHED to "The Royal Colony of South Carolina".
(My father's side of our family were Lowland Scots who emigrated to VA in the mid-18th Century, intermarried with the local Indians & thereafter were small farmers & stockmen in VA, TN, KY, AR & Indian Territory. = The two sides of the family came together in the mid-1930s, when my father met mother at East Texas State Teacher's College, while he was playing pro football in Dallas. Since then, any number of marriages have occurred between the two branches of my family, so that they 2 sides of the family are quite "well-blended".)

The requirement to free-graze our vast flocks/herds (The family's MAIN business was always breeding/raising/selling swine, though our crowd also bred mules/horses for sale.) thereafter constantly moved us west, until the family fled (about 2 steps ahead of the pursuing DY lynch mobs, that were hanging Mississippians of all ethnic groups/genders/social classes/races/"previous status of servitude", without even the pretense of a trial) to TX in late 1865 & early 1866 to continue our profession of stockmen/loggers/tradesmen.
Note: YES, for those members, who may be wondering, our sort of folks were NOT poor by any means but our wealth was "on the hoof".
Some people "of fixed residence" in Dixie called us: Ass Nomads, as stockmen like us often worked our livestock from the back of donkeys/mules. Also, we drove our stock into the mountains to graze in the Summer & coastal areas of MS, AL, GA & LA to graze in the Winter.
(Donkeys & mules are surefooted, not prone to "spook" and/or run away, cheap to buy/feed, seldom need shoes or veterinary care, naturally will guard the flocks from feral dogs/coyotes/wolves and they are plenty fast enough to herd mixed flocks of cattle/sheep/poultry/swine.)

Btw, while neither side of our blended family EVER owned a single slave in over 300 years, our family sent 28 soldier boys off to follow the STARRY CROSS flag & to fight for Dixie freedom.
NONE of our family would have fired a single minie ball to protect some rich guy's "right" to trade in human misery BUT they would/did fight for Mississippi, North Carolina, Arkansas, I.T. & Alabama's freedom from a faraway central government which they believed, with more than a little just cause, was likely to become evermore tyrannical & abusive of their NATURAL RIGHTS as free men.
(9 of those CSA soldiers returned alive at war's end. Of the 28, 5 of them had been murdered in cold-blood, while "guests of the DYs" in the Union concentration camps at Point Lookout, MD & at Camp Douglas in Chicago.)

Addenda: IF the wild/romantic story of GWTW had been fact, NO member of our blended family would have ever been invited into the parlor at 12 Oaks/Tara. Had any member of the family had any commerce whatever with the "planter aristocracy", it would have been to sell our fresh pork/poultry/beef or horses & mules to the plantation. - Like MOST Southerners, who were NOT "aristocrats", our sort of semi-nomadic stockmen wanted only to trade with the "quality folks" & mostly roundly DESPISED the "planters".
"The Planter Aristocrats, otoh, called our sort of mixed-blood Anglo/Scots/Irish/Indian folks: Free Grazers, Crackers, White Trash, Border Ruffians & some less flattering names.
Note: Contrarians that they were, my ancestors embraced the name: BORDER RUFFIANS, as a "back-handed compliment" to their ruggedness, clannishness & tenacity. = Any number of Southern State & local-based CSA units included the word "RUFFIANS" in their unit nicknames.
(In case you don't know, TWBTS was as much a "class war" & "about" trade/economics/unfair taxation as it ever was a war for Dixie freedom. Had the CSA won the war, the "planter aristocrats" might well have been NEXT on the list of Dixie's enemies, as the planter-class, as a whole, seldom fought for the South & OFTEN were collaborators with the hated Yankee invaders, to protect their riches/property/slaves.)

To quote an old grad school prof of mine, "Things in history are simple only to simpletons. History is messy."

yours, satx

 

[pronstar]

Lincoln would have conceded slavery if the South would have bought into the Union’s economic policies.

Copypasta below:
https://mises.org/library/lincolns-economic-legac
but this stuff ain’t exactly a secret once you move away from the historical propaganda.

Lincoln will probably be forever known as the "Great Emancipator" because of the Emancipation Proclamation. But every Lincoln scholar knows something that few Americans are aware of: The Emancipation Proclamation freed no one, because it specifically exempted those areas of the southern states that were at the time under the control of the federal armies while allowing slavery to exist in the "loyal" border states of Maryland and Kentucky and in Washington, D.C. itself.

"The principle [of the Proclamation] is not that a human being cannot justly own another," the London Spectator observed on October 11, 1862, "but that he cannot own him unless he is loyal to the United States" government.

As Lincoln stated in a famous, August 22, 1862 letter to New York Tribune editor Horace Greeley, "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."


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[easy rider]

When Lincoln enacted the Emancipation Proclamation it was in the middle of the Civil War, therefore he wasn't in control of the south, but it did apply to the south after the war.

 

[satx78247]

Lincoln would have conceded slavery if the Sluth would have bought into the Union’s economic policies.

Copypasta below:
https://mises.org/library/lincolns-economic-legac
but this stuff ain’t exactly a secret once you move away from the historical propaganda.

Lincoln will probably be forever known as the "Great Emancipator" because of the Emancipation Proclamation. But every Lincoln scholar knows something that few Americans are aware of: The Emancipation Proclamation freed no one, because it specifically exempted those areas of the southern states that were at the time under the control of the federal armies while allowing slavery to exist in the "loyal" border states of Maryland and Kentucky and in Washington, D.C. itself.

"The principle [of the Proclamation] is not that a human being cannot justly own another," the London Spectator observed on October 11, 1862, "but that he cannot own him unless he is loyal to the United States" government.

As Lincoln stated in a famous, August 22, 1862 letter to New York Tribune editor Horace Greeley, "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."


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pronstar,,

The TRUTH is that Lincoln was NO BETTER & was perhaps even less moral than Obama, in that he would say/claim/DO ANYTHING, no matter how immoral, to get his way.
(I shudder to think what the Post-WBTS USA would have been like, had Lincoln not been killed.)

An observer need look NO farther to know what Lincoln was than his establishment of the concentration camps at Scotland, MD & Chicago & the intentional mistreatment/torture/cold-bloodied murder of THOUSANDS of helpless CSA Prisoners of War and the long-term "detention W/O trial" and/or any just reason whatever of newspaper editors, intellectual, scholars & other persons that he & his henchmen considered to be "possible enemies of the administration".
(Estimates of the murdered/died of mistreatment at the Union concentration camps were at least 6-7 thousand. = Based on my research & several memoirs of guard-force officers & former prisoners, the true number was probably 15-20 thousand.)

Members, who want to know more about this sad period, should read:
1. PORTALS TO HELL: MILITARY PRISONS of the CIVIL WAR by Professor Lonnie F. Speer
2. DACHAU IN AMERICA: the DEATH CAMP CALLED POINT LOOKOUT by Raymond Wills, PhD
3. LEE'S MISERABLES: COLLECTED MEMORIES of the CONFEDERATE PRISONERS of WAR Edited by L.M. Bass, Writer's Project, Works Progress Administration, 1936
and
4. TO DIE IN CHICAGO: CONFEDERATE PRISONERS at CAMP DOUGLAS, 1862-65 by George Levy, EdD

Comment: None of the above works are suitable for the pre-bedtime entertainment of impressionable/sensitive persons. = "GRIM" describes those books accurately.

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

When Lincoln enacted the Emancipation Proclamation it was in the middle of the Civil War, therefore he wasn't in control of the south, but it did apply to the south after the war.

easy rider,

Had he wanted to, Lincoln COULD have freed the slaves in the areas of the USA that were under Union control, had he wished to. He intentionally CHOSE to NOT free the slaves that he COULD have freed, including the slaves in Washington, DC & suburban MD, as he HATED/FEAR the people that he called, "Non-persons" & "Savage creatures, without immortal souls".
(Any reading of Lincoln's private letters, reveals him to be a stone racist & HATER of Jews, LDS members & Roman Catholics.)

yours, satx

 

[easy rider]

easy rider,

Had he wanted to, Lincoln COULD have freed the slaves in the areas of the USA that were under Union control, had he wished to. He intentionally CHOSE to NOT free the slaves that he COULD have freed, including the slaves in Washington, DC & suburban MD, as he HATED/FEAR the people that he called, "Non-persons" & "Savage creatures, without immortal souls".
(Any reading of Lincoln's private letters, reveals him to be a stone racist & HATER of Jews, LDS members & Roman Catholics.)

yours, satx

I'm not going to get into a argument, I'll just say that things were quite sensitive in that time and if you want the actual truth you can't rely on a moment. To learn more about a president you need to learn about the person before and during his presidency. The actual information is out there and it takes a bit more digging then just settling on a synopsis given by one point of view.

 

[diesel1959]

The Emancipation Proclamation was issued as a weaponized proclamation. Regardless of it's "rightness", it was specifically calculated to cause problems within the Confederacy--to sow seeds of discontent from within--so that it might be possible to win a war by fighting fewer actual battles. I believe the EP was an intentional psyop in the days before we called it such.

 

[easy rider]

Certainly I wouldn't dispute that the timing wasn't in regard to the fact the Union was losing and if the south had gained the aid of England or France the history would be quite different, but I'm not so sure it would have been in a good way.

 

[satx78247]

I'm not going to get into a argument, I'll just say that things were quite sensitive in that time and if you want the actual truth you can't rely on a moment. To learn more about a president you need to learn about the person before and during his presidency. The actual information is out there and it takes a bit more digging then just settling on a synopsis given by one point of view.

easy rider,

While I too do not wish to engage in pointless argument, I find it difficult to see any other possibility about the REAL Lincoln, given that in a personal letter in his own handwriting to Tobias Puck, a Republican ward-heeler of Boston: "Be not deceived, when this rebellion is ended, it will be our sad task to drive every Chinaman, Hebrew, Papist, Mexican, follower of Joseph Smith & all of the former bondsmen from our Dominions. As no civilized nation would willingly accept them, we then will be required to exterminate every Red Savage in the nation, man, woman & child. Be assured that this renewed United States is to be solely a White, Protestant, Christian nation. Pray God that our republic will forever remain thus."
(Lincoln's letter still exists & a photocopy is on display at the Tribal Offices of the Southern Cheyenne Nation. = The original is securely stored in a bank vault.)

yours, satx

 

[satx78247]

The Emancipation Proclamation was issued as a weaponized proclamation. Regardless of it's "rightness", it was specifically calculated to cause problems within the Confederacy--to sow seeds of discontent from within--so that it might be possible to win a war by fighting fewer actual battles. I believe the EP was an intentional psyop in the days before we called it such.

diesel1959,

IF you buy into the thesis of THE GLITTERING ILLUSION: ENGLISH SYMPATHY FOR THE SOUTHERN CONFEDERACY by Sheldon Vanauken, you will have to admit that the EP likely kept the British Empire from invading the USA from Canada in 1862-63, likely also blockading Northern Ports & breaking the blockade of the CSA's ports, as well.
Had the UK entered the war, it seems highly likely that Lincoln would have had to make peace with the South.
(Remember, the CSA did NOT have to actually win TWBTS; the new Confederacy simply had to avoid losing & get the Union to end their invasion.)

A victorious South, given the strong Pro-British sympathies of many leaders of the CSA, might well have resulted in the CSA becoming a "protectorate" of the British Empire & protected by the Royal Navy.
Also, given the documented expansionist nature of the CSA foreign policy, the invasion & inclusion of Mexico (and perhaps Cuba) into the CSA's orbit (likely as colonies), seems likely.

yours, satx

 

[easy rider]

easy rider,

While I too do not wish to engage in pointless argument, I find it difficult to see any other possibility about the REAL Lincoln, given that in a personal letter in his own handwriting to Tobias Puck, a Republican ward-heeler of Boston: "Be not deceived, when this rebellion is ended, it will be our sad task to drive every Chinaman, Hebrew, Papist, Mexican, follower of Joseph Smith & all of the former bondsmen from our Dominions. As no civilized nation would willingly accept them, we then will be required to exterminate every Red Savage in the nation, man, woman & child. Be assured that this renewed United States is to be solely a White, Protestant, Christian nation. Pray God that our republic will forever remain thus."
(Lincoln's letter still exists & a photocopy is on display at the Tribal Offices of the Southern Cheyenne Nation. = The original is securely stored in a bank vault.)

yours, satx

Do you have a link to that letter, I can't seem to find Tobias Puck, let alone a letter.

 

[satx78247]

easy rider,

I have NO link to that letter & wouldn't know how to post one if I had the information. I'm not shocked that you found nothing on the Worldwideweird about Tobias Puck, inasmuch as he was not a VIP but instead was simply a minor local politician in Boston and there has been a longtime conspiracy to cover-up the less desirable parts of Lincoln's personality.
(I freely admit that I'm only "semi-literate" in computers.)

yours, tex

 

[easy rider]

easy rider,

I have NO link to that letter & wouldn't know how to post one if I had the information. I'm not shocked that you found nothing on the Worldwideweird about Tobias Puck, inasmuch as he was not a VIP but instead was simply a minor local politician in Boston and there has been a longtime conspiracy to cover-up the less desirable parts of Lincoln's personality.
(I freely admit that I'm only "semi-literate" in computers.)

yours, tex

No problem, and I'm not that astute with computers either, but I do know how to search and not to rely on any one source of search. I just find it odd that if he was factual there would be something. It may not give a factual account of the person, but I think I would find something. I will try to dig deeper, or maybe try a library.

 

[satx78247]

easy rider,

Inasmuch as the letter has been published several times in various Amer-Indian periodicals over the last few decades, I'll see if I can find you a "searchable source".
(I saw a photocopy at the Smithsonian's NATIONAL POW-WOW, 10-12AUG2007 in DC & copied the text down in longhand, as I had no access to the photocopy, which was "under glass" in a display case.)

yours, tex

 

[easy rider]

I think the most hated president by the Indians was Andrew Jackson who was credited with the "Trail of Tears".

 

[satx78247]

easy rider,

One thing is certain: We wouldn't give Jackson a party, if he was still around, though I doubt that wJackson was worse than other "Injun-HATERS" like Lincoln.
(Btw, "FAUX-cahontas", AKA Senator "LYING Liz" Warren (D-MA), who has not even a single drop of Native blood.)
I'm a REAL direct descendant of the REAL Pocahontas, daughter of Deep Stream & Little Fawn, through her youngest daughter Cleopatra Rolfe-Smith & YEP I have both the Church of England marriage/baptism/birth records & DNA results to prove it. Pocahontas Rolfe was my 14th grandmother.)
Note: I'd sooner be a descendant of Pocahontas & CPT John Rolfe, than have a dozen king & queens as ancestors.

Btw, we (part-bloods like me) and persons of pure or nearly pure NA ancestry don't have "unbloodied hands" either. - There is plenty of violent history for both sides to remember with both pride & sadness.

yours, satx