What kind of training do you want?

[Roach011]

I’m arguing that while often it’s true that classroom/ range learning under trainers can be important , it’s not as black and white as assuming that 20 percent of knowledge/ skill (to get to ‘objective proficiency) available is left on the table if I skip it.

i completely agree, i was just using the stats presented by the other poster for consistency. I'd argue its more 60/40 in my experience but thats subjective and anecdotal.

One questions for you, if you are taught the 4 firearms safety rule and follow them without fail, how would you ever holster a gun?

 

[Wildcat Diva]

How can we say that I’m going to become more proficient after taking some $150 class vs the $15 class like I’m going to take tomorrow. Is there really a way to objectify that?

My instructor there noticed and called me out on my improvement she has seen in me over the past year. And you know what was likely the biggest reason for my improvement (based on when I started improving steadily)? Dry firing at home.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

i completely agree, i was just using the stats presented by the other poster for consistency. I'd argue its more 60/40 in my experience but thats subjective and anecdotal.

One questions for you, if you are taught the 4 firearms safety rule and follow them without fail, how would you ever holster a gun?

I don’t see the point of that last question.
Do you mean that on my own without professional training that I couldn’t learn to holster a gun on my own if I pledge to follow the 4 rules?


I think you are wrong in trying to say that such a percentage of knowledge is necessarily left on the table. I think you are misusing the numbers and twisting them to mean something that they don’t mean.

 

[Roach011]

How can we say that I’m going to become more proficient after taking some $150 class vs the $15 class like I’m going to take tomorrow. Is there really a way to objectify that?

My instructor there noticed and called me out on my improvement she has seen in me over the past year. And you know what was likely the biggest reason for my improvement (based on when I started improving steadily)? Dry firing at home.

You can! Compare the curriculum, interview the instructor and ask for references. Talk to those people. Read AARs.

you shouldn't expect to be more proficient after taking a class, you should expect to learn how to practice more effectively to reach proficiency. You should also expect to learn better techniques for whatever you're trying to accomplish. Training is far more than just shooting a gun though. The techniques become tactics, which become thought processes which become problem solving. All under pressure and at increasing speeds.

 

[Roach011]

I don’t see the point of that last question.
Do you mean that on my own without professional training that I couldn’t learn to holster a gun on my own if I pledge to follow the 4 rules?


I think you are wrong in trying to say that a percentage of knowledge is necessarily left on the table. I think you are misusing the numbers and twisting them to mean something that they don’t mean.

The point is that there are intricacies that you alone might not realize when information is presented without context or proper instruction. That was a simple example and they only become more complex. If you are stuck in a square range mentality because thats the only context you have, you might never understand the intricacies of utilizing a firearm in the real world.

 

[DwnRange]

The point is that there are intricacies that you alone might not realize when information is presented without context or proper instruction. That was a simple example and they only become more complex. If you are stuck in a square range mentality because thats the only context you have, you might never understand the intricacies of utilizing a firearm in the real world.

Have you "ever" been in a situation where you were forced by circumstances to take a life?

 

[Wildcat Diva]

If I can’t expect to be more proficient after taking a class, then what’s all the point of pushing training so hard? It’s not like these professionals are going to be with me giving me feedback as I practice after the class.

I see plenty of suggestions for what to practice and how to practice online. How would this information be so much more helpful (quantified) to me presented at a classroom setting vs this method?

 

[toddnjoyce]

People do not see value in that 20%, the question is why.

Several people, including me, have answered why.
The learning objectives of the courses don’t satisfy our motivating needs. That’s the beauty of a free market—no one forces you to participate.

 

[Roach011]

Have you "ever" been in a situation where you were forced by circumstances to take a life?

Nope. But i learn from folk who have. Through training. Helps me to avoid those situations and have a chance at success should my number be called.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

The point is that there are intricacies that you alone might not realize when information is presented without context or proper instruction. That was a simple example and they only become more complex. If you are stuck in a square range mentality because thats the only context you have, you might never understand the intricacies of utilizing a firearm in the real world.

There are other significantly helpful contexts that will achieve proficiency without taking formal training. I just think you are pushing the alternative idea in a black or white way that rubs me a bit wrong.

 

[Roach011]

If I can’t expect to be more proficient after taking a class, then what’s all the point of pushing training so hard? It’s not like these professionals are going to be with me giving me feedback as I practice after the class.

I see plenty of suggestions for what to practice and how to practice online. How would this information be so much more helpful (quantified) to me presented at a classroom setting vs this method?

Watch the video i included earlier. I think that will explain the thought process. Report back after that.

 

[Roach011]

Several people, including me, have answered why.
The learning objectives of the courses don’t satisfy our motivating needs. That’s the beauty of a free market—no one forces you to participate.

Secondary question then is, why not find a class that does satisfy your needs?

 

[Roach011]

There are other significantly helpful contexts that will achieve proficiency without taking formal training. I just think you are pushing the alternative idea in a black or white way that rubs me a bit wrong.

I'm not pushing anyone to do anything other than what you're doing. I just dont agree with what you're doing and presenting alternative ideas.

How can you define proficiency without context? How do you know your context is important? I'm surprised someone who attends training seems to be against training....i wonder how good that training is, who is the instructor? I'd like to do some research.

 

[Younggun]

There are numerous example of the average police officers wounding or killing innocent people in a shooting. NYPD comes to mind. I think we could all agree police officers have more training that the average concealed carrier, yet it still happens!

I left out LE because they aren't applicable to this discussion. But since you include them, it seems their increased training has resulted in an increase of bystander casualties.


Correlation isn't causation though andpolice typically engage under completely different circumstances which is why I didn't ask about LE and why they aren't pertinent.

Care to answer the question as it relates to the average citizen who carries for defense?

 

[Younggun]

[video]

Great tips here.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

I'm not pushing anyone to do anything other than what you're doing. I just dont agree with what you're doing and presenting alternative ideas.

How can you define proficiency without context? How do you know your context is important? I'm surprised someone who attends training seems to be against training....i wonder how good that training is, who is the instructor? I'd like to do some research.

You are pushing your idea in a black or white way. Not pushing people.

You disagree with what I’m doing? Which part? Why is that?

Context for proficiency is a real life scenario which training can not replicate. I go to matches to replicate context the best I can. But matches are not really “formal training” are they?

Define “good” as it relates to training.

The class I’m taking is at Pearland Shooting Club. It’s a monthly women’s class that always has some new shooters in it. We will be reviewing fundamentals the first few classes of this year, which I don’t mind. There’s much worse ways to spend $15 and three hours of my month.

And, you misinterpret: I’m NOT against training. I’m against how you are presenting the need for certain types of training as you describe it. Big difference.

 

[DwnRange]

Nope. But i learn from folk who have. Through training. Helps me to avoid those situations and have a chance at success should my number be called.

So you have never found yourself in a situation where you had to take a life, in order to save your own life or the life of another - I'm gonna bet you have never been shot either, or have ya?

 

[Roach011]

I left out LE because they aren't applicable to this discussion. But since you include them, it seems their increased training has resulted in an increase of bystander casualties.


Correlation isn't causation though andpolice typically engage under completely different circumstances which is why I didn't ask about LE and why they aren't pertinent.

Care to answer the question as it relates to the average citizen who carries for defense?

I reject your premise....the only difference is that police go looking for trouble while the ccw citizen does not. Once the gun comes out, shoot/no shoot and reaction to objective fear of death is the same. We also use LE data because it exist and is decently representative. CCW data is limited because it isnt collected.

To say that an increase in training correlates to an increase in bystanders being hit is ridiculous.

for reference - http://ohhshoot.blogspot.com/2012/06/concealed-weapons-permit-holder-trying.html

 

[Charlie]

I've already answered all those questions.

Not in my opinion. You've written a lot of "stuff" but didn't actually answer all the questions. Oh well...........

 

[Vaquero]

Outstanding. You're comfortable with that i suspect?

Since I'm in the truck 10 hours a day, give or take, yes.
I'm comfortable with it.