What kind of training do you want?

[Wildcat Diva]

So its not what i'm saying, but how i'm saying it?

matches are not training, but they are great practice.

Good training - competent instructors providing effective feedback on well vetted and reliable technique in a safe environment w/ effective context for the situations discussed. I also require that the instructor have trained him/herself within 6 months to a year. I want to learn from the eternal student.

Help me understand how you're receiving what i'm saying so that i might better articulate the message. What type of training am i describing?

It’s both. It’s how you are saying it in that your “why”s are a bit pushy and confrontational. I’m not saying you can never say ‘why’ (I have asked that myself here recently), but keep in mind that in communication ‘why’ is like a seasoning that you can be too heavy handed with because it can be taken as frustratingly confrontational and often prompts a defensive response when it’s used with a bit too much weight.

You are also presenting your ideas as a bit cut and dried in areas that I think are more gray. Think many routes to get to the same destination. You may say that one route is the only way to go. I may disagree or point out different possibilities for other routes that are appealing. Also consider the conveyed significance of that exact destination (as it’s being presented by you).

Someone can give a great recommendation of a trainer and twelve people can tell me how much they love them and I can take their class and be open as hell yet get crap out of it. Know that.

You presentation of ideas and some of the ideas themselves comes off a bit elitist, and I tend to rail against that kind of vibe.

 

[toddnjoyce]

The amount of people who are lackadaisical about self defense is outside of my ability to understand.

That’s not the only thing, I bet.

 

[DwnRange]

I reject your premise....the only difference is that police go looking for trouble while the ccw citizen does not.

You told this to Younggun, but yet while a real man does not go through life seeking out trouble, by the same token neither does he ignore it.

If I take my family to a family restaurant and nere-do-wells are cursing nearby. I speak to the manager (as it is his family restaurant) to ask the nere-do-wells to knock it off……., however if they continue their rude behavior in front of my family and in contravention of the owner’s request. I put a stop to it – because that is what I was taught by my father a real man does.

Correct...i assume there is a point you're trying to make....

REAL Life ain't training, as my point above shows and until you have actually had these experiences I questioned you on, you have no clue how you will react to them. So why should I take your advice over my own, when my answer to both of those questions I asked of you, is yes.

I responded to a woman's screams in a parking lot late at night. Yes, I was shot by a man intent on killing his estranged wife, which he had down on the ground between cars in that parking lot and yes, I was responsible for his death in order to save my life and hers.

The police ain’t always around and sometimes a man has to do what a man does – ya don’t need or get that "real world" type of training from any damned class, hell they'd probably tell ya to call 911. That kind of "man" training comes from parents that loved ya and raised ya proper and it is called "doing the right thing" no matter the consequences.

I tried to be nice, show ya targets and standards that would be beneficial to yourself and others - to which your response was I know, I know it all - perhaps ya do, but I'm putting my money on ya really don't know squat when it comes to real life or especially how it feels to take one, for which there is no training.

Ya know what really saved my life that night - an old VHS disarmament tape I'd watched years before, by a man named Bob Taylor, his techniques for dealing with an armed assailant saved my life that night, yes i was shot, but I would have been killed, so don't tell me folks cannot learn without proper training.

 

[Roach011]

Why? Many many reasons why.

Limited time and resources. I’m by no means dirt poor (household income well over $100,000) but I’m going to have to REALLY budget to go to the $400 conference this Spring. I have kids with braces, kids in college, cars that need repairs so teens can dive them. What’s to say that some $650 training class I take today is gonna benefit me tomorrow any different from my tomorrow response to the same scenario (say, home invasion) vs how I respond today? Why feel such pressure to make that huge investment if I don’t need to? Or want to?

Also, it can be satisfying to take things in on your own terms and at your own speed.

You're going to do what you want. If you don't want to train, you won't. That doesn't absolve you of the personal responsibility i maintain that you have IF you carry a gun for self defense.

You maintain that spending money on training over your current amount...$15....isn't a priority for you. That's a call only you can make. For me, the things i want to do in life is contingent upon me being alive. So priority 1 is preservation of life. In order to preserve life i build the skills necessary. I think more people should. I argue in favor of my view point. I hope that at least one person reads this and says, maybe my priorities are wrong. Maybe they wont.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

Yea, i've lived where the right to defend yourself isnt recognized. It's not fun. The amount of people who are lackadaisical about self defense is outside of my ability to understand. Why anyone would not want to give themselves the best possible chance to survive. is beyond me.

See, this last part here.

“Why anyone would not want to give themselves the best possible chance to survive. is beyond me.”

You’ve assumed some pretty egregious stuff here. It’s so out of whack with reality.

 

[Younggun]

The only responsibility I have carrying a gun is to not harm anyone who doesn't legally deserve it. (And sticking within some regulations)

So long as I meet that standard, training is irrelevant.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

You're going to do what you want. If you don't want to train, you won't. That doesn't absolve you of the personal responsibility i maintain that you have IF you carry a gun for self defense.

You maintain that spending money on training over your current amount...$15....isn't a priority for you. That's a call only you can make. For me, the things i want to do in life is contingent upon me being alive. So priority 1 is preservation of life. In order to preserve life i build the skills necessary. I think more people should. I argue in favor of my view point. I hope that at least one person reads this and says, maybe my priorities are wrong. Maybe they wont.

I disagree with your premise that my $15 class is shit and me taking some $650 class means I value my responsibility and my life more then than now.

 

[Roach011]

You told this to Younggun, but yet while a real man does not go through life seeking out trouble, by the same token neither does he ignore it.

If I take my family to a family restaurant and nere-do-wells are cursing nearby. I speak to the manager (as it is his family restaurant) to ask the nere-do-wells to knock it off……., however if they continue their rude behavior in front of my family and in contravention of the owner’s request. I put a stop to it – because that is what I was taught by my father a real man does.



REAL Life ain't training, as my point above shows and until you have actually had these experiences I questioned you on, you have no clue how you will react to them. So why should I take your advice over my own, when my answer to both of those questions I asked of you, is yes.

I responded to a woman's screams in a parking lot late at night. Yes, I was shot by a man intent on killing his estranged wife, which he had down on the ground between cars in that parking lot and yes, I was responsible for his death in order to save my life and hers.

The police ain’t always around and sometimes a man has to do what a man does – ya don’t need or get that "real world" type of training from any damned class, hell they'd probably tell ya to call 911. That kind of "man" training comes from parents that loved ya and raised ya proper and it is called "doing the right thing" no matter the consequences.

I tried to be nice, show ya targets and standards that would be beneficial to yourself and others - to which your response was I know, I know it all - perhaps ya do, but I'm putting my money on ya really don't know squat when it comes to real life or especially how it feels to take one, for which there is no training.

Ya know what really saved my life that night - an old VHS disarmament tape I'd watched years before, by a man named Bob Taylor, his techniques for dealing with an armed assailant saved my life that night, yes i was shot, but I would have been killed, so don't tell me folks cannot learn without proper training.

So you would actively engage yourself in a situation that you have no business being in with an unknown outcome for what reason? Your ego? If one of those idiots pulls a gun on you, you dont go home...your family is left without a husband or father....i've always been taught a real man provides for his families safety and well being. Hard to do that 6' under. Don't let ego get the best of your decision making.

I don't expect you to take my advice? I would suggest you take advice from people who can answer yes to those questions....Jared Reston of Reston Training Group for example. Look him up.

Would you suggest that had you taken training you would have been just as capable in that situation, no more no less? If you had taken training you might have had a better outcome to that situation, whatever it is. Its speculation to assume. Just as easily as that situation went your way, it could have gone worse for you. Its remarkable that even after such an event you would still suggest you don't need any more knowledge than you had that night....You couldn't possible be helped by someone else. You got this.

If you knew tomorrow you would be faced with a similar situation....what would you spend today learning? IF you had a week to prepare, what would you do? If you had a month to prepare, what would you do? I'd bet you'd get some training.

 

[Roach011]

I disagree with your premise that my $15 class is shit and me taking some $650 class means I value my responsibility and my life more then than now.

I didnt say it was bad. I don't know. I've never seen it. I do know you get what you pay for generally, so i'm certainly skeptical.

 

[Roach011]

See, this last part here.

“Why anyone would not want to give themselves the best possible chance to survive. is beyond me.”

You’ve assumed some pretty egregious stuff here. It’s so out of whack with reality.

such as?

 

[Roach011]

The only responsibility I have carrying a gun is to not harm anyone who doesn't legally deserve it. (And sticking within some regulations)

So long as I meet that standard, training is irrelevant.

yea, if you meet that standard. I see it two ways, you can hope to meet the standard, or you can train and practice to meet the standard.

 

[Younggun]

So you would actively engage yourself in a situation that you have no business being in with an unknown outcome for what reason? Your ego? If one of those idiots pulls a gun on you, you dont go home...your family is left without a husband or father....i've always been taught a real man provides for his families safety and well being. Hard to do that 6' under. Don't let ego get the best of your decision making.

I don't expect you to take my advice? I would suggest you take advice from people who can answer yes to those questions....Jared Reston of Reston Training Group for example. Look him up.

Would you suggest that had you taken training you would have been just as capable in that situation, no more no less? If you had taken training you might have had a better outcome to that situation, whatever it is. Its speculation to assume. Just as easily as that situation went your way, it could have gone worse for you. Its remarkable that even after such an event you would still suggest you don't need any more knowledge than you had that night....You couldn't possible be helped by someone else. You got this.

If you knew tomorrow you would be faced with a similar situation....what would you spend today learning? IF you had a week to prepare, what would you do? If you had a month to prepare, what would you do? I'd bet you'd get some training.

If I knew tomorrow I would be shot at I would stay home. If it were something I couldn't avoid I would be wearing body armor and packing a high powered rifle.

Doesn't mean I'm going to do those things every day though. Doesn't mean an expensive training class is the best use of my resources either.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

I didnt say it was bad. I don't know. I've never seen it. I do know you get what you pay for generally, so i'm certainly skeptical.

You gave a pretty clear vibe and your tone came across.

 

[Younggun]

yea, if you meet that standard. I see it two ways, you can hope to meet the standard, or you can train and practice to meet the standard.

Train and practice. I do that already. It just costs me far less that a class where James Yeager teaches me to rack the slide off my boot.

 

[Roach011]

Train and practice. I do that already. It just costs me far less that a class where James Yeager teaches me to rack the slide off my boot.

James Yeager is a terrible representation of the gun community and trainers nation wide. Lets all be clear

 

[Wildcat Diva]

such as?

Ugh, I really have to spell it out? That, what you said, is an egregious assumption. Just say it back to yourself. The fact that you’ve assumed that someone like me doesn’t prioritize or care about wanting to give myself the ‘best chance’ of survival becuase I don’t take an expensive training.

You assume in your argument that I think that going to an expensive class is my ‘best chance for survival.’ What if I don’t? And then you are suggesting that people like me are irresponsible or don’t care.

Dude, you must KNOW that that is how it’s being taken.

 

[Roach011]

Ugh, I really have to spell it out? That, what you said, is an egregious assumption. Just say it back to yourself. The fact that you’ve assumed that someone like me doesn’t prioritize or care about wanting to give myself the ‘best chance’ of survival becuase I don’t take an expensive training.

You assume in your argument that I think that going to an expensive class is my ‘best chance for survival.’ What if I don’t? And then you are suggesting that people like me are irresponsible or don’t care.

Dude, you must KNOW that that is how it’s being taken.

I havent said anything about expensive classes....I've discussed quality training from quality instructors. I've discussed making it a priority. I've also discussed that in general you get what you pay for. I've never paid more that 225 for a class until recently because i'm choosing to take the next steps. I've also never said that advanced coursework is necessary.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

The you get what you pay for thing...

I’m a woman. Bargain shopping for to pay pennies for valuable stuff is what WE DO. I know value when I see it or I wouldn’t use it. Maybe it’s not valuable to you. But what I do is valuable to me.

When is the test of what it (a cheaper class, or self training) has meant to me in terms of improving my skills and by how much?

And when is the test of what I have missed out on by not taking a more costly (or valuable?) training?

How will we determine if I have passed or failed taking my responsibilities seriously and having my priorities in line? Even the result may not tell us that, as correlation does not equal causation.

 

[Wildcat Diva]

I havent said anything about expensive classes....I've discussed quality training from quality instructors. I've discussed making it a priority. I've also discussed that in general you get what you pay for. I've never paid more that 225 for a class until recently because i'm choosing to take the next steps. I've also never said that advanced coursework is necessary.

You’ve implied that cheaper classes or self training is inferior. If you don’t think that it is, then that’s my mistake in reading into what you wrote.

 

[toddnjoyce]

yea, if you meet that standard. I see it two ways, you can hope to meet the standard, or you can train and practice to meet the standard.

Even though I now have you on ignore, let me pose this:

You specifically said “meet the standard”.

What is the standard, who developed the standard, why was the standard developed, who imposed the standard and why was it imposed, who is required to meet or exceed the standard, how is the standard measured?