Ukraine invasion

[benenglish]

They pound something with artillery, make an attack with infantry supported by tanks, get pushed back with heavy losses, then do the same thing the next day... over and over. Eventually they would simply pound the defenders away, capture a Km or so, move up the artillery just out of range of зсу artillery and repeat. Now that the Ukrainians have weapons with range matching or exceeding the range of the rashist guns, it doesn't work so well...

That's why in one of my first posts in this thread I mentioned their old, Cold War doctrine of doing the same...except with battlefield nukes. For the first time in my life, I'm considering the possibility that someone, somewhere, is gonna be killing people with nukes. I'm not sure how anyone would react and I sure hope it doesn't happen but it's more possible than it has been at any other time in my adult life.

 

[toddnjoyce]

The russians cannot use their armour's mobility….

The entire point of my post had nothing to with mobility. My point was most modern militaries won’t commit ground forces until they’ve largely decimated their opponents by indirect fire, which is what all those missiles you heard were.

 

[cycleguy2300]

The entire point of my post had nothing to with mobility. My point was most modern militaries won’t commit ground forces until they’ve largely decimated their opponents by indirect fire, which is what all those missiles you heard were.

I get ya.

My point was a war of maneuver would largely discount the need for grand scale heavy pounding with artillery, but without air superiority and the ability to provide close air support and being tied to roads russia was largely unable to break through or build on the few break throughs they had.

Encircle and smother still needs guns, but the need for total devastation isn't not as high.

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[toddnjoyce]

I get ya.

My point was a war of maneuver would largely discount the need for grand scale heavy pounding with artillery…

It (maneuver) doesn’t discount the need to attrit enemy forces, air superiority or not. How do you think I made my living from 9/11 thru 2016? I dropped more bombs and issued more Calls For Fire prepping targets than in actual final-100m combat.

The only thing maneuver provides is speed to react/re-form/re-attack. That can only be enabled when the enemy is denied any capability to counter.

ETA: put differently, Russia is fighting a doctrinally traditional effort; Ukraine is using guerrilla tactics with FID and western support to counter.

 

[cycleguy2300]

It (maneuver) doesn’t discount the need to attrit enemy forces, air superiority or not. How do you think I made my living from 9/11 thru 2016? I dropped more bombs and issued more Calls For Fire prepping targets than in actual final-100m combat.

The only thing maneuver provides is speed to react/re-form/re-attack. That can only be enabled when the enemy is denied any capability to counter.

I think you are being overly defensive on this point.

I am not saying artillery isn't important, but in a war of maneuver you don't sit for weeks or months and simply pound a city to dust. Which is what the russians are doing now. That's sort of the opposite style of warfare, the word "seige" comes to mind... my main point is had russia been able to gain air superiority they would have had better freedom to move thanks to close air support and we likely wouldn't be seeing russia using WW1 tactics.




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[toddnjoyce]

I think you are being overly defensive on this point.

I am not saying artillery isn't important, but in a war of maneuver you don't sit for weeks or months and simply pound a city to dust. Which is what the russians are doing now. That's sort of the opposite style of warfare, the word "seige" comes to mind... my main point is had russia been able to gain air superiority they would have had better freedom to move thanks to close air support and we likely wouldn't be seeing russia using WW1 tactics.




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How many years of warfighting have you done?

 

[cycleguy2300]

How many years of warfighting have you done?

Zip your pants bro... Please argue the facts of the matter and don't make it a me vs you. Educate me if I'm wrong. Post up some artillery doctrine and highlight the stuff we should know. I am happy to learn when I am wrong, but let's keep it on point shall we?

The key point of my argument is:

russia has had to resort to WWI tactics in which a artillery is used to pound an objective to dust before moving armour and infantry up because of the lack of air superiority and the lack of ground mobility due to Ukrianian man portable anti-air and anti-armor weapons. russia is grinding away at defensive positions instead by-passing, encircling then mopping them up as would be required for a proper war of maneuver. The end.

I don't even know what your argument is at this point.

Is it that you fought a war?

Is it that you think artillery is "important "?

Is it that russian air superiority wouldn't change how they employ artillery?

Is it that russia is employing blitzkrieg tactics?

Or is it that pounding a city for weeks with artillery is a a war of maneuver akin to blitzkrieg.





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[candcallen]

How many years of warfighting have you done?

Sigh

 

[glenbo]

Anyone who would sanction this kind of destruction of churches, apartment buildings, shops, and streets, no longer deserves to live.

 

[toddnjoyce]

…Educate me if I'm wrong….

There aren’t enough characters in a post.

 

[benenglish]

Anyone who would sanction this kind of destruction of churches, apartment buildings, shops, and streets, no longer deserves to live.

The Russians don't just sanction the destruction of civilian targets. The destruction of civilian infrastructure, especially agricultural infrastructure, seems to be their goal.

As far as I can tell, the Russians don't care about Ukraine at all. It's to be dispensed with since it's merely an obstacle on the road to Poland.

 

[popper]

Heavy artillery (rocks, arrows, bombs) has always been the war method. Then troop attacks. Nothing new. Ru thought they could drive in and take over Kiev , didn't work. They got most of Donbas after years of infiltration of Ru people, kinda like the west bank. Same thing they did in Crimea. Basic same thing happening in US and across Europe. Same with China and Vietnam, etc. It's how you take somebody else's stuff. Been going on since day one.

 

[Brains]

There aren’t enough characters in a post.

Maybe hit a few key points then? I'm trying to learn from y'all, having never even been out of this hemisphere.

 

[General Zod]

The Russians don't just sanction the destruction of civilian targets. The destruction of civilian infrastructure, especially agricultural infrastructure, seems to be their goal.

Just like the Soviets did to them in 1932. And yet Putin imagined his troops would be welcomed by the Ukrainians within living memory of the Holodomor.

 

[candcallen]

For reference texas is 2.2 t

 

[cycleguy2300]

Sounds like the folks that live there can read the writing on the wall... the feeling it Ukraine will take Crimea back and the collaborators are fleeing.






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[toddnjoyce]

Maybe hit a few key points then? I'm trying to learn from y'all, having never even been out of this hemisphere.

Start here.

Then review JP3-0, paying attention to the annex on Principles of War, then move to to JP3-09. Next up is JP 3-30 and 3-31.

Use that knowledge to find weaknesses that can be exploited with the knowledge your opponent is operating closer to what’s in JP3-22 and JP3-24.

That’s just covering the wavetops.

Or read Ryan’s book on the fall of Berlin.

 

[Brains]

Very interesting, historic even. A lot of pages in the joint pubs that I doubt I'll ever have the time to consume, but skimming doesn't really educate much. Perhaps I'm dense, and just missing your point. How does that knowledge determine whether Russia is winning in Ukraine now?

 

[cycleguy2300]

Start here.

Then review JP3-0, paying attention to the annex on Principles of War, then move to to JP3-09. Next up is JP 3-30 and 3-31.

Use that knowledge to find weaknesses that can be exploited with the knowledge your opponent is operating closer to what’s in JP3-22 and JP3-24.

That’s just covering the wavetops.

Or read Ryan’s book on the fall of Berlin.

Thanks for posting those documents. I have a 74h+ week starting tomorrow, but I'll try to breeze through them as a I can. I've read Ryan's book on the fall of Berlin, it was good.





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[Aus_Schwaben]

Too bad we did not have the Ukrainians negotiate our prisoner exchange for the Russian arms dealer - at least the Ukrainians got someone useful in their exchange!

Adik the dog stolen by Russian soldiers returned in prisoner exchange

American Pit Bull Terrier Adik stolen by Russian soldiers and given to Chechen leader Kadyrov as a 'trophy' has been freed and returned to a Ukrainian servicewoman in a prisoner exchange.

www.dailymail.co.uk