Ukraine invasion

[Havok1]

Sending their troops to the front with rations that expired in 2005, in trucks whose tires were made in the Soviet Union, and wearing body armor made of cardboard sewn into a plate carrier while armed with Mosins? Pretty sure you can't even claim to have expected that.

Or to see a Russian army hampered by the weather in winter.

Yeah, you’re probably right. But the overall point remains. I’m also far from an expert on russia so I’d expect that those who are would have had more insight on those types of things than someone like myself.

 

[General Zod]

Yeah, you’re probably right. But the overall point remains. I’m also far from an expert on russia so I’d expect that those who are would have had more insight on those types of things than someone like myself.

Russia's not exactly an "open book" to experts on our side of things. The only things they know for sure are the obvious embarrassments, like their new fighters that they're so proud of...but can't even field an entire squadron of.

It wasn't an unreasonable assumption to think their trucks and armor would be in working order, or that they'd have some clue about fighting in the climate they live and train in...or that they'd even have decent rations to try to live on while fighting. And things like cardboard body armor and new recruits being issued WWII era rifles couldn't have been reasonably predicted. Hell, even little Caribbean banana republics issue their troops decent rifles. But the fact remains that the Russians invaded, and not all of their equipment was shit, and they're launching guided missiles into civilian neighborhoods. So yeah, I'm all in favor of helping the Ukrainians kick them out.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

GZ,

"rations that expired in 2005"

I understand and don't agree with the 'expired' date. Those things will last and be edible in the year 5555...if man is still alive.

Lots of medications say the same kinda thing, but they actually remain quite viable.

And I'm not raking you over the coals - I'm venting in general...general.

I continue to doubt the 'we have to stop russia in uke' or they'll take over all of europe discourse...

russia has a very aging population that has more people dying than reproducing, with a crap military. Not that it can be entirely dismissed, as I think their overwhelming numbers (even with deplorable leadership) will eventually win them their horrific invasion.

It does sound like you think we aren't sending them billions and billions of moola...they've even admitted it...so not much room for doubt there.

For arguments sake: Uke is doing us a favor by saving us the cost of warehousing old, paid for military gear?

OK...well, I guess we should thank them for taking all this largesse (oh wait, I mean stuff 'costing us' money off our hands...thank goodness they're so generous...

Hey, part of my 'doubtful Thomas' posture when it comes to the uke/rus war screed is just a fun exercise in debate.

 

[General Zod]

I didn't say they're "doing us a favor" by taking our old equipment, but we're hardly spending the billions that are claimed by unloading that stuff. Or do we really have a great need for Vietnam era M113s? Now sure, there is money by the truckload going to support them, but most of the billions the press reports and the dems so proudly declare...is stuff that was bought and paid for in the 80s, and they're counting its cost as if it was purchased brand new today.

Just like if we give them the F-16s they've been begging for, they're not going to be brand new Block 72 F-16C's that roll off the line at Lockheed-Martin. They're going to be F-16A's that are regenerated at Davis-Monthan from the Boneyard. But they'll be reported as costing $62 million apiece, despite the fact that when they were bought during the Reagan administration they cost $5 million and that investment was long since paid for. That way the Dems can say "Look how much we're sending them!" and the doubters on this side can cry out "Look how much they're sending them" and both can be wrong about the actual, current cost.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

GZ,

Killing civilians to gain war advantage at one time was considered 'Ungentlemanly" - Now, it's considered a good plan of attack to winning wars...

No sane person finds the killing of 'noncombatants' reasonable...yet, it's done.

That being said, the U.S. isn't the worlds police...yeah, we've heard it all before and it's true.

People warring/invading/subjugating each other et al, the world over isn't something the U.S. can just arbitrarily decide to intervene in...the world isn't ours to decide such things unless they do a Pearl Harbor or a 911 to us,..then God help them.

 

[Mowingmaniac 24/7]

GZ,

Gotta go for now.

I've enjoyed our debate.

 

[General Zod]

...unless they do a Pearl Harbor or a 911 to us,..then God help them.

Yeah, then we'll abandon billions of dollars worth of shiny new small arms and vehicles for them to use to spread their terror more. Frankly, I'd rather voluntarily give old stuff to Ukraine to use against Russia than do a half-assed, idiotic bug-out and give new stuff to the Taliban to use against whoever they decide to try to kill next.

 

[RedArmy]

I'm glad someone spoke up in favor of helping the Ukrainians. Some of the stuff the ruskies are doing is just evil, I've been keeping track of the conflict daily. I just hope Ukraine can launch a successful counter attack when the mud dries out this summer. The only thing holding back a lot of russian movement right now is the winter weather which makes running armor tough without getting stuck. They're currently making only small attacks, Bakmut will probably fall soon though, the russian wagners nearly have the main supply road cut. The only decent combat group the russians have are the wagners, there seems to be some infighting between them and the regular army though so hopefully that slows them down.

I didn't know consumer drones were this strong, I need to get one.

 

[leVieux]

<>

I wonder. . . . . .

Could ‘’Z O D’’ be an acronym for ’’Zelensky’s Oblivious Defender’’ ?

?

 

[General Zod]

<>

I wonder. . . . . .

Could ‘’Z O D’’ be an acronym for ’’Zelensky’s Oblivious Defender’’ ?

?

Cute. Did it take you all afternoon to come up with that? You're one to talk about being oblivious. And I quote:

I believe that Putin, Medvedev, Yeltsin, & Lavrov are all devout practicing Christians.

Your own words.

 

[Havok1]

Russia's not exactly an "open book" to experts on our side of things. The only things they know for sure are the obvious embarrassments, like their new fighters that they're so proud of...but can't even field an entire squadron of.

It wasn't an unreasonable assumption to think their trucks and armor would be in working order, or that they'd have some clue about fighting in the climate they live and train in...or that they'd even have decent rations to try to live on while fighting. And things like cardboard body armor and new recruits being issued WWII era rifles couldn't have been reasonably predicted. Hell, even little Caribbean banana republics issue their troops decent rifles. But the fact remains that the Russians invaded, and not all of their equipment was shit, and they're launching guided missiles into civilian neighborhoods. So yeah, I'm all in favor of helping the Ukrainians kick them out.

Many of those countries have decent weaponry because we buy and maintain it for them. and just because you see pictures of people outfitted with one thing doesn’t mean everyone there has that. I remember one guy carrying a rifle that had a hole in the receiver and he was using a bike peg as a vertical grip.

can we agree on the fact that prior to this war, most of the people who thought the Russian military was so strong had no idea what they were talking about, and they learned it from other people who had no idea what they were talking about, but they had their opinion reinforced by other people who had no idea what they were talking about? And that this is the reason why people mistakenly believe this is beneficial to us?


Good point about the missiles being fired into neighborhoods. But then that leaves the question that if the goal is to weaken the Russian military, then it would be advantageous to us if they continue firing those missiles and reduce their supply. But then we aren’t helping ukraine, we are sacrificing them.

I’d be curious to look back in this thread to see if you posted about the Russian missile that was fired into Poland, and how your opinon of it may have changed when it was found out that it was actually a ukranian missile.

Back to my original reason for posting though, just because people don’t support our involvement there does not make them pro putin, and suggesting it does is ridiculous.

 

[General Zod]

Many of those countries have decent weaponry because we buy and maintain it for them. and just because you see pictures of people outfitted with one thing doesn’t mean everyone there has that.

can we agree on the fact that prior to this war, most of the people who thought the Russian military was so strong had no idea what they were talking about, and they learned it from other people who had no idea what they were talking about, but they had their opinion reinforced by other people who had no idea what they were talking about? And that this is the reason why people mistakenly believe this is beneficial to us?


Good point about the missiles being fired into neighborhoods. But then that leaves the question that if the goal is to weaken the Russian military, then it would be advantageous to us if they continue firing those missiles and reduce their supply. But then we aren’t helping ukraine, we are sacrificing them.

I’d be curious to look back in this thread to see if you posted about the Russian missile that was fired into Poland, and how your opinon of it may have changed when it was found out that it was actually a ukranian missile.

Back to my original reason for posting though, just because people don’t support our involvement there does not make them pro putin, and suggesting it does is ridiculous.

I didn't comment here on the Ukrainian missile that landed in Poland, but I was following the story and realized early on it was likely an errant SAM. When the story first broke, before more info was released, I was concerned that it may have been an "intentional accident" that was meant to send a message to the Poles.

And tell you what, If I agree that the people who overestimated Russian capabilities had little to no info, then you should agree that those who were sure they'd be a pushover had the same lack of info...and the truth is somewhere in-between.

 

[leVieux]

Cute. Did it take you all afternoon to come up with that? You're one to talk about being oblivious. And I quote:



Your own words.

?

Yes, and that came from neutral third party media, albeit quite a while back.

Do you have any direct knowledge that those are not correct ? Any non-direct info on that topic ?

So ?

Please recall that both GHW Bush abd A.G. Barr once were CIA operatives; Bush the Director.

leVieux
.

 

[General Zod]

Please recall that both GHW Bush abd A.G. Barr once were CIA operatives; Bush the Director.
.

Are you seriously comparing the CIA to the KGB? Even in the most insane Democrat fever dream there is no comparison. Unless you know of the CIA torturing and "disappearing" US citizens, or murdering people for talking out against the government. Has there ever been a CIA office in every major city that people lived in fear of being dragged down to? Even today we don't have that kind of secret police organization.

Have you taken full leave of your senses? And here I thought I had quoted the most ridiculous thing you've ever said and you go and top yourself.

 

[leVieux]

Are you seriously comparing the CIA to the KGB? Even in the most insane Democrat fever dream there is no comparison. Unless you know of the CIA torturing and "disappearing" US citizens, or murdering people for talking out against the government. Has there ever been a CIA office in every major city that people lived in fear of being dragged down to? Even today we don't have that kind of secret police organization.

Have you taken full leave of your senses? And here I thought I had quoted the most ridiculous thing you've ever said and you go and top yourself.

>

As a matter of FACT, yes, I am !

The Military Intelligence Establishment has always warned of the ‘’out of control’’ CIA.

Many of us believe that the CIA was complicit in the JFK assassination. And in its cover-up.

They are a major part of the deep state. We know they have conducted extrajudicial executions in foreign lands, remember ‘’Chi Guevara MD’’ ?

Do you think that the Clintons could have ‘’arkancided’’ so many potential witnesses without their cooperation ?

Operation ‘’Fast and Furious’’ ? Iran Contra ?

Cover-up of Benghazi Massacre debacle ?

Our audience can see and evaluate our comments here, let them judge for themselves.

leVieux
.

 

[General Zod]

>

As a matter of FACT, yes, I am !

The Military Intelligence Establishment has always warned of the ‘’out of control’’ CIA.

Many of us believe that the CIA was complicit in the JFK assassination. And in its cover-up.

They are a major part of the deep state. We know they have conducted extrajudicial executions in foreign lands, remember ‘’Chi Guevara MD’’ ?

Do you think that the Clintons could have ‘’arkancided’’ so many potential witnesses without their cooperation ?

Operation ‘’Fast and Furious’’ ? Iran Contra ?

Cover-up of Benghazi Massacre debacle ?

Our audience can see and evaluate our comments here, let them judge for themselves.

leVieux
.

The conspiracy theories run deep with you. Let's see...

Kennedy Assassination - the "impossible" shot has been replicated. No need for some vast conspiracy.

Extrajudicial executions - of US citizens? On a mass scale like the KGB carried out, including forced labor camps and mass executions? Let's see some proof. Real proof.

Fast And Furious, Iran Contra, and the Bengazi cover-up? Yeah, those were so expertly handled nobody knows about them at all. And I suppose you figure all the witnesses, reporters who covered the story, and government officials who knew about it were eliminated? How, then, do we know about these half-assed efforts?

As for the Clintons, they've got their fingers in enough dirty dealings it sure as hell wouldn't need to be the CIA who was involved with getting rid of inconvenient people. Hell, I would hope the CIA would be more competent than the Clintons' fixers have been.

Now let's see about some actual CIA "triumphs"...such as assuring the Bush administration that Iraq was only posturing and wouldn't follow through with an invasion of Kuwait. Or vastly overestimating the combat strength of the Republican Guards in that same conflict. Or having absolutely zero human intelligence sources on the ground in Afghanistan during the Taliban's reign of terror, so there was no reliable source of information on prominent individuals, locations, or strengths of Taliban forces. And then there's the expertly-run prison at Mazar-e-Sharif where the CIA completely lost control of Taliban prisoners - such experts!

Now, if the CIA was a scary secret police organization like the KGB, well for one thing you wouldn't dare hit "POST REPLY" on the stream of consciousness you just hit me with. Martin Luther King would've been eliminated before the march in Selma, Ronald Reagan would never have been anything more than a one-time governor of California, Donald Trump would have suffered an unfortunate accident in 2016, or 2017, or 2018, definitely by 2019, and there's no way he'd have been around in 2020...and we'd have never heard of things like Iran-Contra, Fast and Furious (btw, you need to study a bit - the CIA is not part of the Department of Justice, and F&F was a DoJ operation spearheaded by the Attorney General), we'd all believe Benghazi was caused by that stupid video Hillary tried to pin it on because anyone who said different would have been eliminated. These are the kinds of things that happened in the USSR that the KGB was tasked with. People who rubbed the Politburo the wrong way weren't just eliminated, they were erased. Them, their spouses and children, their parents, their cousins and siblings...they were removed from living memory. Some were sent to the gulags to die in the cold while being worked mercilessly, while others were simply taken away on one way trips by KGB agents. If you're going to claim the CIA was anything like that, then you're going to have to show some pretty convincing proof.

 

[BigRed]

I'm just amazed at the loyalty some here have to Putin. The old, hardline Soviet KGB section chief. But hey, he's a great guy now, right?

Yes, we know if one objects to the plundering of taxpayer funds, to burdening our children and grandchildren with endless spending; bailing out corrupt ****hole states to whom we have no obligation, it is because one is a "putin loyalist".

What a ****ing joke.

 

[General Zod]

Yes, we know if one objects to the plundering of taxpayer funds, to burdening our children and grandchildren with endless spending; bailing out corrupt ****hole states to whom we have no obligation, it is because one is a "putin loyalist".

What a ****ing joke.

Way to pick and choose my words. If you've gotta be dishonest to make your point, then you're pretty fucking pathetic.

The Biden administration has wasted FIVE FUCKING TRILLION dollars on pork, rewarding political allies, instituting socialist policy and teaching socialist theory as "education", and every damn waste of money you can or can't imagine, and you've got your fucking panties in a wad over a few billion? Any way you cut it, we have MUCH larger problems than some handouts to people who are trying to resist an invasion.

But hey, you're just pissed they won't sell you an M-60, right? I mean, those are your words. Guess it's just all about you.

 

[BigRed]

Way to pick and choose my words. If you've gotta be dishonest to make your point, then you're pretty fucking pathetic.

The Biden administration has wasted FIVE FUCKING TRILLION dollars on pork, rewarding political allies, instituting socialist policy and teaching socialist theory as "education", and every damn waste of money you can or can't imagine, and you've got your fucking panties in a wad over a few billion? Any way you cut it, we have MUCH larger problems than some handouts to people who are trying to resist an invasion.

But hey, you're just pissed they won't sell you an M-60, right? I mean, those are your words. Guess it's just all about you.

If you think I'm ticked over how much is being pissed away on this ukraine / russia bull****, you have absolutely NO IDEA my thoughts regarding not only this obiden asswipe of an administration, but the several asswipe administrations that preceeded it.

Good evening.

 

[General Zod]

If you think I'm ticked over how much is being pissed away on this ukraine / russia bull****, you have absolutely NO IDEA my thoughts regarding not only this obiden asswipe of an administration, but the several asswipe administrations that preceeded it.

Good evening.

Oh, right, and only you are allowed to be pissed off at the state of politics in this country...riiiight. But you see, I have only the things you've said here to go on, and apparently according to you, you're just pissed off you can't buy an M-60. That's literally where your last argument with me wound up.

You say I have "NO IDEA" of your thoughts on it. You've been pretty fucking enthusiastic about providing thoughts and assigning them to me, so pardon me if I'm not impressed.