A funny thing happened on Sunday. With the spring rains, my wireless internet quits working about as often as satellite TV did before I got rid of it.
Now, for those who may have thought that I’m in the paid service of Western Powder Co., and of course, I’m not, but this you’ll appreciate. The thing that led me to my discovery of first, Ramshot powders was that I had been using a lot of Vihta Vouri powders previously. By the time Ramshot came on the scene, the V-V powders were expensive enough that I had to question my own reason in using them. It didn’t hurt that the first Ramshot ballistician informed me that Silhouette was the same powder previously sold as Winchester Action Pistol, or WAP. He was also the first to tell me that the OEM powder that FNH bought from P.B. Clermont in Belgium was introduced in the US as Ramshot True Blue. Those of you who know my posts probably know I have a thing about the pressure stability of the powders I use, and few cartridges present problems in pressure stability quite like the 5.7 X 28mm which is what FNH used in it originally, and may still.
Okay, enough of the background stuff. What I’m getting at here is that whenever any new powder comes on the market that might have application in one of the calibers I load. If it’s a handgun powder with good potential pressure stability, I check it out. Many of you now know that both Silhouette and True Blue are used in another potentially problematic cartridge used in IPSC competition, 9mm MAJOR along with V-V 3N37, N350 while HS-6 is still a mainstay and lately, AutoComp and CFE Pistol have started seeing use. But, there is one powder that was in common use where many long for its return where distributor issues had been problematic in the US for NobelSport/Vectan powders and SP2 had a large following in IPSC. Recently there was a post where I mentioned that Vectan powders are available again. Graf & Sons are the exclusive distributors, but somehow, SP2, SP3 and SP8 are no longer on the program. SP8 was a great all-around powder somewhat similar to True Blue and probably more like V-V N340. The numbers were a bit confusing because SP3 was actually a magnum handgun propellant while SP2 (Practical) was their comp. powder. Interesting enough, Graf’s was probably the last source for Vectan powders before importation ceased and at the very end, they were selling off 8# canisters, IIRC, in the $60 vicinity. It’s unfortunate that I don’t have any of it stored today, but my main interest was always in SP2. I used it in 9 X 19mm up to and including +P, .40 S&W and even my experimental .357 Short Magnums that I mention from time to time. Although I was excited to see the recent return of Vectan powders, I was disappointed that there was no return of SP2 in particular. Well, before Sunday, anyway.
Call me crazy, but feel free to check for yourself because while I was without the wireless, I thought I’d investigate the Vectan line. This is where it does get crazy! Looking at the burn rates for the powder line, I thought Ba 7 ½ might have some potential in the event I run out of a current powder I use. In another post I mentioned that some of Vihta Vouri’s pistol powders are fine-cut extruded/stick powders as are Vectan’s Ba series. The reason I said some of V-V powders is because these powders are SINGLE-BASED just as extruded rifle propellants mostly are. 3N37 and 3N38 are fine cut extruded, but I can’t say for sure if they are truly single-based. V-V has always stated, starting with 3N37 and it originally being a powder used for Lapua .22 LR Match Ammo, that it was not truly part of the N series pistol powders (same with 3N38) that are single-based, Nitrocellulose with no Nitroglycerin added. One reason they are very pressure stable. The thing is, Ba 7 ½ is but one of 3 new Vectan powders, and it’s gonna get even more mysterious at this point and I can’t claim to have the answers. I might know some of the facts involved and those I’ll present.
So, I say, okay, this 7 ½ stuff looks pretty decent and then I start digging the various burn rate charts out that I have on my computer, and Vectan’s is given in their downloadable data, so you will definitely want to do that. I found Vectan’s ratings fairly accurate for the most part and none of us have ever likely run into a perfect burn rate chart, but they do help and I’ll explain how it definitely helped this time. I looked at powders comparable to Ba 7 ½, according to Vectan and the 3 closest are AA#7, SR 4756 and N350. And we know the unfortunate circumstance that 4756 is being discontinued by Hodgdon. They can blame it on IMR if they want to, but they own IMR. Suffice it to say, I’m not much of a Hodgdon fan and never have been. I trust some of their handgun load data about as far as I can throw an elephant and leave it at that. “No Wimps Please.” Ring a bell for you older hands? Anyway, at this point I’m thinking that NobelSport dropped their 3 spherical, double-based powders for 3 single-based, fine cut extruded.
I start making harder comparisons. I look at performance by chargeweight in several calibers starting with 9 X 19mm and see Vectan’s claim that while it is slower burning, it will require lower charges than my beloved Silhouette where for 124 gr. +P JHP loads, it has no peer with the possibility of 2 V-V powders. Now the clouds will start clearing up. I pull up the most recent load guide from Lapua (Vihta Vouri) and start seeing a number of similarities to N350. Here’s one place I’ll try to add clarity. One thing being as many of you know, there are a great number of powder manufacturers in Europe. I don’t know of one of them that isn’t owned by one of the 2 largest conglomerates and I believe I read that SNPE Group (NobelSport/Vectan) is owned by the same group as Lapua Oy (Vihta Vouri). Also, not long ago there was a labor strike at the plant in Finland. If anyone wants to dig farther, or if I’m missing something, pile on! As I said, IIRC. If that’s not the case with them being owned by one single conglomerate, things will be even more confusing. Why? Because the closer I looked, the more coincidence I found. First in 9mm, so I go to .40 S&W. Same thing, then I go to .357 Magnum, 10mm, etc., etc. Vectan shows that Ba 7 ½ uses the same exact charge-weights as V-V N350, and it gets better! Velocities are identical!!! It’s as though Vectan copied the latest V-V data and reprinted it.
I saw my shooting partner briefly yesterday when he stopped by on his way to work. Although he wasn’t quite in the same state of amazement, he was intrigued nonetheless and I bet he’s already downloaded the Vectan data by now.
We had a bit of a break with the weather yesterday, but this morning when I start work, no internet again. So, I thought I’d look at the 2 Ba powders I had pretty much neglected in my excitement over 7 ½. Just so you’ll know, checking for availability at Graf’s was one of the first things I did. Doesn’t matter who makes what or where; even the Coyote’s Acme powder from the Roadrunner cartoons, when a handgun powder is available, it’s not for long. Ba 7 ½ is out of stock The numbering system for these powders is also different and in reverse with Ba 10 being the Fastest and 6 ½ being the Slowest. 9 ½ & 6 ½ are the other 2 other new powders in the Ba line. Let’s look at 9 ½! Right off the bat I see that Vectan shows it in the same group as one of the most popular .45 ACP Comp. powders: V-V N320 and it just keeps getting better and better. Where the same bullet description was used, the 9 ½ data looks like it also came from the V-V data. Again, feel free to check me on this because while V-V powders are running around $37 at Graf’s, these Vectan Ba’s are selling for $27, for now, anyway.
Rather than drag it out; yes, 6 ½ shows identical data as N110 where the same bullets are listed. That’s one magnum pistol powder I’ve always wanted to try but didn’t simply because of price. So you tell me, is it a case of Vectan just figuring out the chemical formula of these V-V powders? Even if they did it would still be a matter of patent infringement unless there was no patent given. Not likely, IMO. Or, maybe during that strike at the Lapua plant in Finland the chemistry was made available to a sister company. You’re guess is as good as mine ‘cause I’ve presented all of the facts I know. BTW, I’m only going to post this thread on my 2 primary forums. Even then I suspect this will spread like wildfire and different from when I started preaching about a new powder company in the early part of this century/millennium! In other words, you heard it first from 57K! You're
Now, for those who may have thought that I’m in the paid service of Western Powder Co., and of course, I’m not, but this you’ll appreciate. The thing that led me to my discovery of first, Ramshot powders was that I had been using a lot of Vihta Vouri powders previously. By the time Ramshot came on the scene, the V-V powders were expensive enough that I had to question my own reason in using them. It didn’t hurt that the first Ramshot ballistician informed me that Silhouette was the same powder previously sold as Winchester Action Pistol, or WAP. He was also the first to tell me that the OEM powder that FNH bought from P.B. Clermont in Belgium was introduced in the US as Ramshot True Blue. Those of you who know my posts probably know I have a thing about the pressure stability of the powders I use, and few cartridges present problems in pressure stability quite like the 5.7 X 28mm which is what FNH used in it originally, and may still.
Okay, enough of the background stuff. What I’m getting at here is that whenever any new powder comes on the market that might have application in one of the calibers I load. If it’s a handgun powder with good potential pressure stability, I check it out. Many of you now know that both Silhouette and True Blue are used in another potentially problematic cartridge used in IPSC competition, 9mm MAJOR along with V-V 3N37, N350 while HS-6 is still a mainstay and lately, AutoComp and CFE Pistol have started seeing use. But, there is one powder that was in common use where many long for its return where distributor issues had been problematic in the US for NobelSport/Vectan powders and SP2 had a large following in IPSC. Recently there was a post where I mentioned that Vectan powders are available again. Graf & Sons are the exclusive distributors, but somehow, SP2, SP3 and SP8 are no longer on the program. SP8 was a great all-around powder somewhat similar to True Blue and probably more like V-V N340. The numbers were a bit confusing because SP3 was actually a magnum handgun propellant while SP2 (Practical) was their comp. powder. Interesting enough, Graf’s was probably the last source for Vectan powders before importation ceased and at the very end, they were selling off 8# canisters, IIRC, in the $60 vicinity. It’s unfortunate that I don’t have any of it stored today, but my main interest was always in SP2. I used it in 9 X 19mm up to and including +P, .40 S&W and even my experimental .357 Short Magnums that I mention from time to time. Although I was excited to see the recent return of Vectan powders, I was disappointed that there was no return of SP2 in particular. Well, before Sunday, anyway.
Call me crazy, but feel free to check for yourself because while I was without the wireless, I thought I’d investigate the Vectan line. This is where it does get crazy! Looking at the burn rates for the powder line, I thought Ba 7 ½ might have some potential in the event I run out of a current powder I use. In another post I mentioned that some of Vihta Vouri’s pistol powders are fine-cut extruded/stick powders as are Vectan’s Ba series. The reason I said some of V-V powders is because these powders are SINGLE-BASED just as extruded rifle propellants mostly are. 3N37 and 3N38 are fine cut extruded, but I can’t say for sure if they are truly single-based. V-V has always stated, starting with 3N37 and it originally being a powder used for Lapua .22 LR Match Ammo, that it was not truly part of the N series pistol powders (same with 3N38) that are single-based, Nitrocellulose with no Nitroglycerin added. One reason they are very pressure stable. The thing is, Ba 7 ½ is but one of 3 new Vectan powders, and it’s gonna get even more mysterious at this point and I can’t claim to have the answers. I might know some of the facts involved and those I’ll present.
So, I say, okay, this 7 ½ stuff looks pretty decent and then I start digging the various burn rate charts out that I have on my computer, and Vectan’s is given in their downloadable data, so you will definitely want to do that. I found Vectan’s ratings fairly accurate for the most part and none of us have ever likely run into a perfect burn rate chart, but they do help and I’ll explain how it definitely helped this time. I looked at powders comparable to Ba 7 ½, according to Vectan and the 3 closest are AA#7, SR 4756 and N350. And we know the unfortunate circumstance that 4756 is being discontinued by Hodgdon. They can blame it on IMR if they want to, but they own IMR. Suffice it to say, I’m not much of a Hodgdon fan and never have been. I trust some of their handgun load data about as far as I can throw an elephant and leave it at that. “No Wimps Please.” Ring a bell for you older hands? Anyway, at this point I’m thinking that NobelSport dropped their 3 spherical, double-based powders for 3 single-based, fine cut extruded.
I start making harder comparisons. I look at performance by chargeweight in several calibers starting with 9 X 19mm and see Vectan’s claim that while it is slower burning, it will require lower charges than my beloved Silhouette where for 124 gr. +P JHP loads, it has no peer with the possibility of 2 V-V powders. Now the clouds will start clearing up. I pull up the most recent load guide from Lapua (Vihta Vouri) and start seeing a number of similarities to N350. Here’s one place I’ll try to add clarity. One thing being as many of you know, there are a great number of powder manufacturers in Europe. I don’t know of one of them that isn’t owned by one of the 2 largest conglomerates and I believe I read that SNPE Group (NobelSport/Vectan) is owned by the same group as Lapua Oy (Vihta Vouri). Also, not long ago there was a labor strike at the plant in Finland. If anyone wants to dig farther, or if I’m missing something, pile on! As I said, IIRC. If that’s not the case with them being owned by one single conglomerate, things will be even more confusing. Why? Because the closer I looked, the more coincidence I found. First in 9mm, so I go to .40 S&W. Same thing, then I go to .357 Magnum, 10mm, etc., etc. Vectan shows that Ba 7 ½ uses the same exact charge-weights as V-V N350, and it gets better! Velocities are identical!!! It’s as though Vectan copied the latest V-V data and reprinted it.
I saw my shooting partner briefly yesterday when he stopped by on his way to work. Although he wasn’t quite in the same state of amazement, he was intrigued nonetheless and I bet he’s already downloaded the Vectan data by now.
We had a bit of a break with the weather yesterday, but this morning when I start work, no internet again. So, I thought I’d look at the 2 Ba powders I had pretty much neglected in my excitement over 7 ½. Just so you’ll know, checking for availability at Graf’s was one of the first things I did. Doesn’t matter who makes what or where; even the Coyote’s Acme powder from the Roadrunner cartoons, when a handgun powder is available, it’s not for long. Ba 7 ½ is out of stock The numbering system for these powders is also different and in reverse with Ba 10 being the Fastest and 6 ½ being the Slowest. 9 ½ & 6 ½ are the other 2 other new powders in the Ba line. Let’s look at 9 ½! Right off the bat I see that Vectan shows it in the same group as one of the most popular .45 ACP Comp. powders: V-V N320 and it just keeps getting better and better. Where the same bullet description was used, the 9 ½ data looks like it also came from the V-V data. Again, feel free to check me on this because while V-V powders are running around $37 at Graf’s, these Vectan Ba’s are selling for $27, for now, anyway.
Rather than drag it out; yes, 6 ½ shows identical data as N110 where the same bullets are listed. That’s one magnum pistol powder I’ve always wanted to try but didn’t simply because of price. So you tell me, is it a case of Vectan just figuring out the chemical formula of these V-V powders? Even if they did it would still be a matter of patent infringement unless there was no patent given. Not likely, IMO. Or, maybe during that strike at the Lapua plant in Finland the chemistry was made available to a sister company. You’re guess is as good as mine ‘cause I’ve presented all of the facts I know. BTW, I’m only going to post this thread on my 2 primary forums. Even then I suspect this will spread like wildfire and different from when I started preaching about a new powder company in the early part of this century/millennium! In other words, you heard it first from 57K! You're
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