Annnnnnd Dallas County just got themselves an MRAP!

[Texan2]

Armored vehicles? For what? What plausible threat do they have that requires this?

In 1999 in Atascosa County, Texas 3 officers were shot and killed and 2 others shot and wounded, and a shootout that lasted for hours ensued. Officers could not approach the shooter due to the amount of ammo he had cached in preparation. He merely popped up in the dark and cranked off rounds at the cops every few minutes. Eventually officers used a fire truck as cover to approach and even the fire truck got shot up in the process. This tool sure would have been nice to have back then.

For all the crime in Dallas proper the gang bangers are NOT that well armed.

That is a delusional statement that has no basis in fact.

I am guessing that if any of the posters on this thread had a son or daughter that served high risk warrants, they would be fine with them using an armored vehicle.

 

[Texan2]

The police need to realize they are overstepping into our territory and leave the big boy toys and tactics to us.

What is "your territory"? If you are in the military, "your territory" is fighting foreign enemies, typically on foreign soil. Domestic law enforcement is not "your territory".

"Big Boy toys and tactics"? Why do military SF units go train with LAPD SWAT, Texas DPS SWATand several other American LE SWAT teams? The military learns quite a bit of urban tactics from the civilian LE sector.

It would appear that its the military in this case that is butthurt that someone else gets to use gear that they consider "theirs".

 

[mosin]

how is a MRAP going to protect LEOs inside a house during a drug raid?

Or is there some rampant problem of drug dealers launching RPGs out the window every time a black & white rolls by?

 

[Blind Sniper]

Have any of the naysayers given thought to the intimidation factor vehicles like this could have? I know I'd think twice about fighting if I saw that beast roll up on my property.

 

[Texan2]

how is a MRAP going to protect LEOs inside a house during a drug raid?

It wouldn't. I am pretty sure they won't try to get it inside a house.

Or is there some rampant problem of drug dealers launching RPGs out the window every time a black & white rolls by?

Not that I am aware of, but then again that has nothing to do with why LE agencies obtain this equipment. It is typically to get officers close to someone who has demonstrated that they are not afraid to shoot at people or to retrieve wounded officers and/or citizens while the threat of a shooter is still present.

 

[Texan2]

A great read...

By Doug Deaton PoliceOne Member Advocates from every corner of the political compass have produced a mountain of disinformation about the “militarization” of American law enforcement, especially on the Internet. It’s interesting to read anger-infused blogs and Internet forums calling for the rejection of “militarization” and a return to the “good old days” of policing (like Mayberry’s Andy Griffith). Many writers routinely lament that cops were once “peace officers” instead of “law enforcement officers” or “police officers.” In truth, these titles all refer to the same role, and there never has been a functional difference between them. If we could ask Wyatt Earp or Bill Hickok whether they kept the peace or enforced the law, they would most likely say the same thing any modern police officer would: “Both.” Origins of the Argument The vast majority of claims regarding the “militarization” of American police can be traced to the works of two men: Peter Kraska and Radley Balko. Their writings, and subsequent conclusions about “militarization” of police, are based on cherry-picking of data, a demonstrated willingness to use incomplete source material (such as preliminary or anecdotal reports of police misconduct vs. final court decisions regarding the same incidents), and extensive use of post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning. Their work is rife with confirmation bias and has been used by numerous critics as a foundation upon which to build a large but flimsy body of writings on “militarization” that does not stand up to serious scrutiny. Unfortunately, Kraska and Balko’s work is regularly cited by radicals from both the right and left to support extreme agendas. The best salesmen of the “militarization” theme write in a way that feeds the grievances and bitterness of readers throughout the political landscape. They provide seemingly solid references to support positions that appear reasonable and logical on the surface. A deeper look at their work usually reveals that they have skillfully combined true stories of legitimately awful incidents with half-truths, innuendo, and generalities to inspire the belief that botched paramilitary raids are business as usual throughout our profession. The most vitriolic commentary regarding “militarization” is based on deeply flawed thinking by emotional people who tend to believe everything they read. These are the hardcore believers who cannot be bothered to verify the facts reported by their favorite authors. People who read only those sources they agree with (and the sources those sources agree with) can be easily led down a false intellectual path. That’s how otherwise normal people end up believing with all their heart that their local police officer is an agent of the New World Order, the U.N., or President Obama’s shadowy “National Defense Force.” Valid Questions Exist What’s not in dispute is that valid questions exist about the proper role of government and the actions of its enforcers. Such questions have existed since the founding of our country. However, an honest examination of the practical “in-the-field authority” of modern police officers compared to that of the 1950s reveals an incredible contrast. Police in the 1950s could — and did — use serious force much more often than modern officers. Searches, seizures, and arrests that were commonplace in the ‘50s would today be thrown out of court and cause the officer to be stripped of his or her license and become the focus of a criminal investigation. A review of the available literature reveals a widespread belief that the mere use of protective equipment by police officers signifies a growing police state employing hordes of cops eager to trample on the Constitution. The use of specialized equipment and protective gear by firefighters, athletes, and race car drivers is seen as a logical response to potential hazards. The cop who uses a helmet, rifle-rated body armor, and an AR-15 to deal with dangerous criminals is deemed guilty of “overkill.” All too often, accusations of “militarization” are based more on perception than facts (how police “look” instead of what they actually do). Many critics never consider that the use of military-inspired technology and equipment has pervaded almost every aspect of American life. If law enforcement has become militarized, then the same is true for trauma medicine, aviation, video games, deer hunting, satellite television, GPS navigation, and those giant SUVs the soccer moms drive. The last time I checked, my actions as a police officer — including those undertaken while using a helmet, body armor, rifle, and armored vehicle — were still governed by state law, case law, and department policy, all of which were enacted by lawfully elected representatives who were put in place by the citizens of a constitutional republic. Those who believe that American law enforcement has become “militarized” should educate themselves about court rulings and laws passed during the past 10 years regarding citizens’ rights to carry firearms in public, use force to protect themselves and their property, and be free from police searches of their homes, vehicles, and persons. With very few exceptions, those rights have been and continue to be re-affirmed, reinforced, and expanded by legislation and court decisions. Legal requirements for police departments to be transparent to the public (open records requests and FOIA requests) are more powerful than they have ever been. There are more restrictions and mandates controlling the actions of police authorities now than at any time in American history. The sky is not falling.

 

[mosin]

okay so for those defending this kind of stuff, honest question. At what point is it to far?

We 24/7 surveillance by the feds on anything electronic from email to facebook.
Federal tracking of all credit card purchases.
Search warrants for wiretaps are just a formality given all the NSA revelations.
No knock warrants are becoming common place, SWAT raids on farms.
Now we have story after story about them buying things like MRAPS

So really like at what point do y'all say, okay.. maybe this is a bit much? Honest question, I want to know what is to far.

I don't want a bunch of dead cops but there aren't many anyways.
National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Officer Deaths by Year officer deaths have been pretty much unchanged for 100 years even with a massive increase in population and number of police.

On average barely over a third were shot/beaten/stabbed in the last decade and this garbage only somewhat prevents being shot. I sincerely doubt most of those would even have been prevented by hiding behind a MRAP.
National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Causes of Law Enforcement Deaths

Reading this it seems a better phyical standards program and driving classes would do more good than a MRAP.
http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/reports/2012-Preliminary-Report.pdf
A sunday jog isn't as cool as a MRAP though I guess maybe they can jog beside sit?

 

[PapaG]

They will still need to use leos on the around to serve the warrant. I do not think driving up in a armored car and shouting you have a warrant will work.
I do not feel this will make much difference to the really bad guy's who are going to fight it out no mater what. Lessor charges still could go bad. If they use it on all warrants they are going to get far behind not counting the man power needed for each operation
Their choice.

sent from inside the fire tornado

 

[Texan2]

Mosin,
Its not about the hardware they use. Its about the software. The mindset.
Your post addresses several issues that have nothing to do with each other, but mainly you are addressing FEDERAL le issues. There is a massive difference.
I don't think that OSHA or the USDA need a SWAT team, but using armored vehicles to approach dangerous individual is the smart thing to do. The less cops have to be expsed to gunfire the better.
The reason the deaths among officers stay lower that some might think is precisely BECAUSE of technology and medical advances. Soft body armor, and miricle working doctors save lives that 30, 40 or 50 years ago would have been deaths.
Take the officers that were shot in Selma, Texas a couple weeks ago. One officer had his femur shattered by a bullet. 50 years ago that may have been a death. There would not have ben backup there in 2 minutes, nor the advanced techniques available that paramedics use today in trauma medicine. The other officer took a bullet to the face. Shattered her cheek bone. she had all kinds of incredible trauma. She will bever hear out of one ear, will have to have one side of her face rebuilt after the bullet is removed from her head, but 50 yearrs ago it is highly unlikely that she would have survived.

Most SWAT team members are in excellent physical condition.

I am not being sarcastic or condescending, but seriously want to know how pro 2A Americans who have the view that they should not be barred from owning any firearms, vehicles or technology that they can afford in order to make them and their family safer.....thinks LE officers don't have those same rights.

 

[Younggun]

If nobody thinks an MRAP will protect the officers, why are you scared of them having one?

 

[TX69]

If nobody thinks an MRAP will protect the officers, why are you scared of them having one?

It would stand with reason that the vehicle exemplifies wasteful spending. There is an extremely long list of equipment and resources officers could more readily use better than this truck.

 

[Younggun]

It would stand with reason that the vehicle exemplifies wasteful spending. There is an extremely long list of equipment and resources officers could more readily use better than this truck.

But this is what the Feds offered.


I guess instead of lining up behind the MRAP for cover they could just form a long single file line and use the guy in front for cover. Or maybe use a fire truck as mentioned earlier in the thread. Those are really cheap, right?

 

[TX69]

But this is what the Feds offered.


I guess instead of lining up behind the MRAP for cover they could just form a long single file line and use the guy in front for cover. Or maybe use a fire truck as mentioned earlier in the thread. Those are really cheap, right?

 

[TxDad]

I read that they had gotten it from Ft Hood all for just the cost of transporting it back home to Dallas.

 

[CrazedJava]

That is a delusional statement that has no basis in fact.

I am guessing that if any of the posters on this thread had a son or daughter that served high risk warrants, they would be fine with them using an armored vehicle.

I have friends currently on the Dallas Police. Everytime I see an officer involved shooting I am glued to the TV to make sure it wasn't one of them.

I don't know where you are getting this "The police are outgunned". Dallas does not have gang bangers routinely running around with high powered weapons. Most of them have handguns. For every modern sporting rifle, illegal assault rifle, or shotgun they have the police have dozens more and they always show up in force. The police have not been outgunned since the 90's.

However, consider this -

Dallas Acquires MRAP Armored Vehicle As Militarization Of Police Continues - Investors.com

Especially this key bit -

In early August, a SWAT team broke through the gates of a 3.5-acre farm in Arlington, Texas, that promotes a sustainable lifestyle and did a 10-hour search of the property. Residents were handcuffed and held at gunpoint as police looked for nonexistent marijuana plants and various city code violations.

As the owners watched, 10 tons of their private property was hauled off in trucks — dangerous items such as blackberry bushes, okra, tomatillo plants, native grasses and sunflowers that provided food and bedding for animals, everything from furniture to compost.
The city said the code citations were issued to the farm after complaints by neighbors “concerned that the conditions” at the farm “interfere with the useful enjoyment of their properties and are detrimental to property values and community appearance.”
The SWAT raid came after “the Arlington Police Department received a number of complaints that the same property owner was cultivating marijuana plants on the premises,” the city’s statement said. So why not just knock on the door with a search warrant?


It would be one thing if these were ONLY being used on dangerous criminals, but more and more we are hearing about SWAT teams being used to raid businesses or to serve standard search warrants. The story above comes from Arlington, practically next door. Not some blue nanny state with a Big Brother complex.

At some point, enough is enough.

 

[AMERICANTARGETS741776]

Sounds about right. Dallas County handles the rural areas around Dallas, and those areas are shrinking as suburbs continue to grow.

Seems like an odd use of funds while their overall mission is getting smaller, but also par for the course for Dallas County. One of the worst Sheriff's Offices I've ever seen.

We always knew this, Didn't we all see that RED JACKET episode when Joe built one for their Law Enforcement Officer?

 

[CZ guy]

I don't know where you are getting this "The police are outgunned". Dallas does not have gang bangers routinely running around with high powered weapons. Most of them have handguns. For every modern sporting rifle, illegal assault rifle, or shotgun they have the police have dozens more and they always show up in force. The police have not been outgunned since the 90's.

So, how many officers getting killed will it take before YOU decide it is ok for law enforcement to 'one up' the bad guys? It only takes a single incident for most folks to reflect 'wish we had a _____ in reserve somewhere to use in cases like this'.

But, people that have never put their life in jeopardy to perform a job, normally don't understand.

 

[TX69]

i read that they had gotten it from ft hood all for just the cost of transporting it back home to dallas.

liv

 

[Younggun]

I have friends currently on the Dallas Police. Everytime I see an officer involved shooting I am glued to the TV to make sure it wasn't one of them.

I don't know where you are getting this "The police are outgunned". Dallas does not have gang bangers routinely running around with high powered weapons. Most of them have handguns. For every modern sporting rifle, illegal assault rifle, or shotgun they have the police have dozens more and they always show up in force. The police have not been outgunned since the 90's.

However, consider this -

Dallas Acquires MRAP Armored Vehicle As Militarization Of Police Continues - Investors.com

Especially this key bit -

In early August, a SWAT team broke through the gates of a 3.5-acre farm in Arlington, Texas, that promotes a sustainable lifestyle and did a 10-hour search of the property. Residents were handcuffed and held at gunpoint as police looked for nonexistent marijuana plants and various city code violations.

As the owners watched, 10 tons of their private property was hauled off in trucks — dangerous items such as blackberry bushes, okra, tomatillo plants, native grasses and sunflowers that provided food and bedding for animals, everything from furniture to compost.
The city said the code citations were issued to the farm after complaints by neighbors “concerned that the conditions” at the farm “interfere with the useful enjoyment of their properties and are detrimental to property values and community appearance.”
The SWAT raid came after “the Arlington Police Department received a number of complaints that the same property owner was cultivating marijuana plants on the premises,” the city’s statement said. So why not just knock on the door with a search warrant?


It would be one thing if these were ONLY being used on dangerous criminals, but more and more we are hearing about SWAT teams being used to raid businesses or to serve standard search warrants. The story above comes from Arlington, practically next door. Not some blue nanny state with a Big Brother complex.

At some point, enough is enough.

For every story like this there are ten that tell of officers being shot at while serving a warrant or during a stand off.

And WTF are tamatillo plants?

 

[Charlie]

For every story like this there are ten that tell of officers being shot at while serving a warrant or during a stand off.

And WTF are tamatillo plants?

Some kind of potent new dope weed?