Bitcoin

[Southpaw]

I've done a little research and a lot of thinking.

While bitcoin seems to have established value, I'm out.

No bashing, not judging. Just that "gut" feeling I can't shake.

That's been my thought's on it as well.
I can't bash it either, but at the same time I can't endorse or even fathom using it in my lifetime.
But I do find it interesting, albeit, a bit beyond my comprehension.

 

[jordanmills]

I've done a little research and a lot of thinking.

While bitcoin seems to have established value, I'm out.

No bashing, not judging. Just that "gut" feeling I can't shake.

That's been my thought's on it as well.
I can't bash it either, but at the same time I can't endorse or even fathom using it in my lifetime.
But I do find it interesting, albeit, a bit beyond my comprehension.

Fair enough to both. I find it hard to tell someone to ignore their gut when finances are involved.

But I expect that you'll see it almost completely replace paypal within the next two years.

You're both aware that you don't have to drop thousands into it and ride it out for months, right? You can get a small amount and send it to someone as payment for goods and not worry about the long term value.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Fair enough to both. I find it hard to tell someone to ignore their gut when finances are involved.

But I expect that you'll see it almost completely replace paypal within the next two years.

You're both aware that you don't have to drop thousands into it and ride it out for months, right? You can get a small amount and send it to someone as payment for goods and not worry about the long term value.

Not bashing it at all, but I can already do this with a CC, & get cash back....

 

[Army 1911]

I am waiting for bytecoin. It will be worth more.

 

[Southpaw]

Fair enough to both. I find it hard to tell someone to ignore their gut when finances are involved.

But I expect that you'll see it almost completely replace paypal within the next two years.

You're both aware that you don't have to drop thousands into it and ride it out for months, right? You can get a small amount and send it to someone as payment for goods and not worry about the long term value.

I'm aware of it but let me pick your brain a bit more.

And if you answered this, you can just link me to it instead of repeating yourself....

But what would be the benefits of me choosing to use this over a CC, as ZX9 mentioned or debit card to purchase the same item?

 

[Leper]

I am waiting for bytecoin. It will be worth more.

I see what you did there, and i think its funny.

 

[winchster]

I am waiting for bytecoin. It will be worth more.

I'm guessing about 8 times more.

 

[jordanmills]

Not bashing it at all, but I can already do this with a CC, & get cash back....

Not bashing. Open discourse and honest discussion of pros and cons is a good thing.

Yes, but that requires they have a merchant account with a third party processor, and everyone involved have bank accounts of one kind or another, and can be easily reversed. And the merchant is the one that pays for the cash back (and more), it just goes through the bank on the way back to you.

 

[jordanmills]

I am waiting for bytecoin. It will be worth more.

I see what you did there, and i think its funny.

I'm guessing about 8 times more.

Lol.

Ten times, if you count physical signaling.

 

[jordanmills]

I'm aware of it but let me pick your brain a bit more.

And if you answered this, you can just link me to it instead of repeating yourself....

But what would be the benefits of me choosing to use this over a CC, as ZX9 mentioned or debit card to purchase the same item?

From the buyer's perspective, pros:
Don't have to keep an account with a US bank.
Don't have to have the right kind of card (not as much of an issue nowadays, but it used to be that lots of places would only take visa or mastercard but not both).
Annoying "security" limits imposed by government regulation (like PIC regulations).
Somewhat anonymous, can be very anonymous if you put some work into it.


From the seller's perspective, pros:
Very low cost to use (credit cards usually cost $0.25-1.00 plus 2.5-5% per transaction, bitcoin is somewhere between free and five cents).
Can easily accept payment from anybody anywhere - they don't even need an internet connection.
A disgruntled buyer can't reverse a transaction just because they feel like screwing you over, or claim that their "accounts got hacked" and leave you without your money or merchandise.
A transaction is about as solid as a six month old credit card transaction after half an hour, usually.
Nothing is stopping you from checking ID before selling if you want or need to.

From the buyer's perspective, cons:
Can't reverse a transaction if you get ripped off (note that this is the same as cash and ACH/wire transfers in most cases).
Right now there's a moderate barrier to entry (you need to find someone who will sell you BTC for cash, which isn't hard, or wait a week to get a bank account linked from a processor).
The burden of security falls on you (unless you contract someone else to store your savings balances).

From the seller's perspective, cons:
May be difficult to find people who use it.
May be difficult to integrate with point of sale systems (this is quickly changing).

Common pros:
You can very easily store large amounts at little to no cost in a nearly completely secure fashion (beats the pants off the FDIC).
You can have numerous backups of your savings wallets, password protected, stored in many places that have never touched a network connection.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Not bashing. Open discourse and honest discussion of pros and cons is a good thing.

Yes, but that requires they have a merchant account with a third party processor, and everyone involved have bank accounts of one kind or another, and can be easily reversed. And the merchant is the one that pays for the cash back (and more), it just goes through the bank on the way back to you.

OK, but I don't know how much dealing I will be doing with people who don't have bank accounts, at least for now.
Still too unknown & "scary" for me, lol....

 

[jordanmills]

OK, but I don't know how much dealing I will be doing with people who don't have bank accounts, at least for now.
Still too unknown & "scary" for me, lol....

Fair enough. If I were advising, I would advise you against trusting significant amounts of money to something you don't understand well.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Fair enough. If I were advising, I would advise you against trusting significant amounts of money to something you don't understand well.

LOL....
m

 

[jordanmills]

LOL....
m

But something told me you didn't need my financial advice. I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to push people into jumping into bitcoin right now.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

But something told me you didn't need my financial advice. I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to push people into jumping into bitcoin right now.

Its all pretty cool, I just know nothing about it, am pretty much computer/tech illiterate, & resistant to change.


Almost up to grumpy old man status, lol...

 

[OFFascist]

FWIW I have a gun I'm willing to sell for bitcoins.

Bitcoin has many features that make it very useful, some are: can be used to circumvent capital controls, easier to send money internationally without paying currency exchange fees, and unlike the digital currency you keep in your bank account the government cannot seize your bitcoins you are keeping in your own wallet if it is properly encrypted and backed up.

 

[Big Phil]

Here's what I think I've got so far

Bit coin is a virtual currency

You don't actually get anything but you can buy stuff with it.

Here's my question. Who is "selling" the original bit coins? They have to originate from somewhere and they aren't given away for free, right? At least not anymore.
So somebody stands to make some serious cash for setting this all up. Not bad, capitalism, free market and all that. But why?

I'm afraid I just don't get it, maybe I'll be proved wrong but if I go somewhere without computers and offer them digital currency that won't do me any good.

If someday, God forbid, technology fails and the machines take over...well I guess we've got bigger problems so who cares.

To each his own, good luck to those who are into it, I hope you make lots of money.

 

[benenglish]

...can be used to circumvent capital controls, easier to send money internationally without paying currency exchange fees, and unlike the digital currency you keep in your bank account the government cannot seize your bitcoins you are keeping in your own wallet if it is properly encrypted and backed up.

These are the "less nice" advantages to bitcoin...and the ones I find most persuasive.

 

[jordanmills]

You don't actually get anything but you can buy stuff with it.

That... doesn't make sense. Are you trying to say that you'll get scammed every time you try to buy something with them?

Here's my question. Who is "selling" the original bit coins? They have to originate from somewhere and they aren't given away for free, right? At least not anymore.

Well they never exactly were being given away for free, but they are being given away for work that perpetuates the currency. That's what mining is about. A mined block contains the transactions of the past ten minutes or so and a link to the previous block. Most transactions include a very small free (about five cents worth of BTC right now) that goes to the miner as an incentive to keep mining blocks. The first 140 or so years of blocks also give a reward to the miner that solves for it - it used to be 50, now it's 25, and it gets cut in half every four years.

 

[TheDan]

Wow, some really strong opinions in this thread

To answer the original question on if I'd accept bitcoins for a gun I was selling; only if the buyer would be willing to add 3% or whatever the current fees are to exchange for USD. The electric company and HEB don't accept bitcoins... If more places accepted bitcoin for payment then I'd be all for it. Is it possible to get a part time job paid in bitcoin? Could I buy some property with bitcoin?

As to the philosophical discussion about bitcoin... I think it's great that there is a non-centralized cypto-currency gaining acceptance to compete with traditional currencies. Competing currencies are as healthy to a free market as competing businesses. I do have some concerns about it's deflationary nature, however. The perfect currency would expand and contract with the growth and shrinkage of the market in which it's traded, meaning inflation and deflation would both be zero. I'm afraid a deflationary currency that has a defined fixed limit will be abandoned before that limit is even reached because people will begin to realize that only the people who had it for a very long time are extracting any value out of it. Even gold isn't deflationary. Anytime the demand for gold outpaces the market causing deflation, people come up with ways to mine more of it. Even if it were possible to mine every bit of it on earth (I highly doubt that's possible, there's more gold in aqueous solution floating around the ocean than there is in the ground), people will be sending robots to asteroids to mine it. Bitcoin might be hot for the next 50 years or so, but it would definitively be prudent to know when to ditch it for another competing currency.

Even though I have some issues with it, I don't understand the aversion to it as a virtual currency. The numbers that are direct deposited by your employer into your bank account, and then spent at the grocery store with your debit card, are equally as virtual. The fact that you can exchange those numbers for FRNs at your bank doesn't really mean much considering the current state of the Federal Reserve System. FRNs might as well be thought of as a virtual currency with the value stored in ink on paper instead of stored as a number on a computerized balance sheet. They really aren't a physical currency like gold or silver is.

I assure you, I pay my taxes to the feds and the great state of TEXAS.

You're proud of paying your taxes? With all the fraud, waste, and abuse that our tax dollars goto I feel disgusting whenever I pay my taxes. Speaking more of the federal taxes here... I think our property taxes are a bit high due to mismanaged school districts, but for the most part Texas is great on taxes.