Bitcoin

[Txpitdog]

The International Money Fund and World Bank will support and push the bitcoin to the point that individual country currencies become bulky, undesirable forms of completing transactions. They will allow economies to surge while governments waste more and more of wealth they don't have expanding their power through welfare programs. Just as the global wealth is peaking as determined by virtual currency and populations are almost entirely dependent and under the control of massive governments, they will EMP the whole thing and wipe out all individual property, wealth, self-reliance, and ultimately freedom. The world population will be cast into chaos under a well-managed, finely tuned, single totalitarian regime.

Puff, puff, pass. It's almost time for the Two Minutes Hate.

 

[Southpaw]

FWIW I have a gun I'm willing to sell for bitcoins.

Bitcoin has many features that make it very useful, some are: can be used to circumvent capital controls, easier to send money internationally without paying currency exchange fees, and unlike the digital currency you keep in your bank account the government cannot seize your bitcoins you are keeping in your own wallet if it is properly encrypted and backed up.

If the feds seize your money, well then you are either into some heavy criminal activity or you have owed them a large amount of back taxes for a very long time.
Also, where does the average bitcoin user keep his wallet/private key? If it is located on a computer they have on or around them, isn't that able to be seized as well if the feds come for your private property as well as your bank account, which is often the case and certainly would be if they knew you to be a bitcoin user engaged in illegal activity? Isn't this what happened to the operator of Silk Road?
Either way, if you don't see it coming you would be a fool.
So what other scenario are you worried about where the government is just randomly seizing bank accounts and private property without some sort of warning?
Hell! If they are to that level of tyranny, what makes you think they aren't going to just shut down most forms of civilian communication? In that case, both the bitcoin and all currency not in hand, and maybe even that, would be useless.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against bitcoin, I think it's very new and would need to be simplified to be embraced by the average consumer of today. But I don't think extolling the fact that it's useful for criminal circumvention is a way to win the hearts and minds of many.

 

[benenglish]

Also, where does the average bitcoin user keep his wallet/private key?

Anywhere they want.

If it is located on a computer they have on or around them, isn't that able to be seized as well if the feds come for your private property as well as your bank account, which is often the case and certainly would be if they knew you to be a bitcoin user engaged in illegal activity? Isn't this what happened to the operator of Silk Road?

Not really.

The overwhelming majority of the bitcoin seized during the Silk Road shutdown cannot be accessed by the authorities. They have some digital data and they can trumpet the size of their seizure in the press. However, they don't have the ability to unlock that digital data and actually use it.

If the feds seize your money, well then you are either into some heavy criminal activity or you have owed them a large amount of back taxes for a very long time.

That's basically true of the feds. However, the feds aren't the only people who do seizures.

...if you don't see it coming you would be a fool.
So what other scenario are you worried about where the government is just randomly seizing ... private property without some sort of warning?

There have been too many times in my life when a serious problem just disappeared when I produced a stack of $100 bills, so I tend to carry a significant amount of cash pretty much all the time. I am legitimately worried about the random seizures of cash done by local authorities after traffic stops. Every so often (and far more often than should happen) some small town will make the news by virtue of the fact that the local speed trap is used as an excuse to do searches and seize cash. There are a near-infinite number of horror stories along those lines. Where civil forfeiture is invoked, money is routinely stolen under the color of authority.

If you want to scare yourself by reading up on it, these links were the first two that turned up for me on Google: Premier Cash Seizure Attorney | Money $ Seizure Lawyers ? Police, DEA, Customs, Homeland Security and Are Innocent Citizens at Risk of Police Seizure of Their Cash, Cars and Homes? | PBS NewsHour | Aug. 19, 2013 | PBS

Personally, I think that the very old concept under English common law that an inanimate object can be guilty of a crime or subject to civil action should be expunged from existence. It won't happen, though; it's too lucrative.

So, scenarios where the government (basically but arguably, I admit) is "just randomly seizing ... private property" are not just possible but depressingly common.

Bitcoins, combined with good data security practices, is a way to store value that is impervious to seizure by the government. I find that valuable.

Hell! If they are to that level of tyranny, what makes you think they aren't going to just shut down most forms of civilian communication?

You think "they" won't or can't? Google "internet kill switch". That's a whole 'nother discussion.

... I don't think extolling the fact that it's useful for criminal circumvention is a way to win the hearts and minds of many.

I hold the exact opposite opinion. Once people are educated to the fact that we are all criminals then we can begin to appreciate the fact that the tools of criminals have legitimate uses for all of us. And we are all criminals; see You, too? and extrapolate that to how this situation can impact any of us if we happen to randomly land in a bad situation.

 

[karlac]

I've done a little research and a lot of thinking.

While bitcoin seems to have established value, I'm out.

No bashing, not judging. Just that "gut" feeling I can't shake.

What he said. Bitcoin ultimately and absolutely requires one thing, and one thing only .... electricity. Take away that, not all that historically stable, resource, and you have absolutely nothing.

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Ben, you never fail to amaze me, lol....

 

[Southpaw]

Anywhere they want.

Not really.

The overwhelming majority of the bitcoin seized during the Silk Road shutdown cannot be accessed by the authorities. They have some digital data and they can trumpet the size of their seizure in the press. However, they don't have the ability to unlock that digital data and actually use it.

If you hold the key on a personal computer,tablet, etc. and it is seized by the feds, those bitcoins are useless to you as well as them. However my point was that you would lose the value of them just like if they seized your bank account. The OP of the post I quoted mentioned that it could not be seized like a bank account, but it in fact can in a situation where the place the wallet is kept is no longer accessible to the owner.

That's basically true of the feds. However, the feds aren't the only people who do seizures.

Then fine, say it's Bank X doing the seizing, they may still have the ability to seize your private property and again if your wallet is seized physically it is again gone, just like a bank account. In order to keep your money you are going to have to withdraw it or convert it into cash and physically hold it. Remember, we are talking about the ability of an entity to seize a bank account over a BTC wallet. If they are coming for you, both bank account and a BTC wallet don't substantially keep one safe from seizure unless the money is taken from those accounts.

There have been too many times in my life when a serious problem just disappeared when I produced a stack of $100 bills, so I tend to carry a significant amount of cash pretty much all the time. I am legitimately worried about the random seizures of cash done by local authorities after traffic stops. Every so often (and far more often than should happen) some small town will make the news by virtue of the fact that the local speed trap is used as an excuse to do searches and seize cash. There are a near-infinite number of horror stories along those lines. Where civil forfeiture is invoked, money is routinely stolen under the color of authority.

So what's that have to do with bitcoins versus bank account? If you have your money in either a bank or BTC wallet, your local crooked cop will still not have access to either. Or are they now walking people up to ATM's and making them empty their accounts? If they are, then that's just a crime and you are prone to having this happen to you whether it's a LEO or not.
Also, as BTC becomes more accepted, won't it too become just as prone to being taken at gun point or threat and sent to the criminals BTC wallet?

So, scenarios where the government (basically but arguably, I admit) is "just randomly seizing ... private property" are not just possible but depressingly common.

In your opinion, what percentage of the population is this happening to on a daily basis? I'm not implying it doesn't happen, but "common", I don't agree.

Bitcoins, combined with good data security practices, is a way to store value that is impervious to seizure by the government. I find that valuable.

I agree, but the average person doesn't follow good data security practices and you can't change that.
My entire point was they are only as good as where that private key/wallet are located, correct? If you cannot physically access the hardware it is on, then it may as well not even exist, no? Of course there are ways of storing it away from a one's self, but I venture to say most will not and that still opens them up to seizure of their bitcoins by seizing their accessibility.

You think "they" won't or can't? Google "internet kill switch". That's a whole 'nother discussion.

No, you took that the wrong way. I absolutely believe they could shut the internet as well as most forms of communication down without very much effort. However, I would hope by that point you were wise enough and able to empty your bank accounts and convert your BTC to paper currency. That paper money may be good for something in the world we are about to live in. However, the BTC and bank ledger totals will be gone just the same. At that point they are both equally useless./

I hold the exact opposite opinion. Once people are educated to the fact that we are all criminals then we can begin to appreciate the fact that the tools of criminals have legitimate uses for all of us. And we are all criminals; see You, too? and extrapolate that to how this situation can impact any of us if we happen to randomly land in a bad situation.

I don't argue that people are charged with crimes they didn't realize they were committing, but again, I do dispute the commonality of their occurrences though. However, that's sort of beyond the scope of my response posted to OFFascist that you responded to.

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http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/Youtoo/tabid/86/Default.aspx#Lacey
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[ZX9RCAM]

Just so I understand (vaguely), the "wallet" is kept on an individual "machine", & if lost or stolen, all Bitcoin is lost to the owner?
There is no remote access?

 

[TheDan]

The International Money Fund and World Bank will support and push the bitcoin... they will EMP the whole thing and wipe out all individual property, wealth, self-reliance, and ultimately freedom.

An EMP cannot wipe out real property, wealth, self-reliance, or freedom. It can't even wipe out bitcoin as long as you have your wallet backed up in an EMP resistant container. It becomes much more cumbersome to use because electricity and networks will be more localized after an event like that, but it's not an end of the world scenario. All your digital USD in the bank is less protected from an EMP.

"Them" shutting down the internet is a fallacy, too. The federal government can make it much more difficult to network if they wanted to, but even if all the fiber in the nation went dark tomorrow, peer to peer wireless networks would pop up rather quickly. There's enough network engineers, hackers, and telecommunications techs out there that shutting down the "net" isn't really possible at this point.

If the feds seize your money, well then you are either into some heavy criminal activity or you have owed them a large amount of back taxes for a very long time.

Not necessarily... Did you hear about what happened in Cyprus recently? Don't think that something like that couldn't happen here.

Just so I understand (vaguely), the "wallet" is kept on an individual "machine", & if lost or stolen, all Bitcoin is lost to the owner?
There is no remote access?

You can have wallets on wallet services, or on secured network storage. You can also encrypt your wallet file and make backups of it. If someone steals an encrypted wallet file, all you have to do is use your backup to transfer to a new wallet. It would be the same as if your hard drive crashed since they have no way at all to access the encrypted file.

 

[Txpitdog]

"Them" shutting down the internet is a fallacy, too. The federal government can make it much more difficult to network if they wanted to, but even if all the fiber in the nation went dark tomorrow, peer to peer wireless networks would pop up rather quickly. There's enough network engineers, hackers, and telecommunications techs out there that shutting down the "net" isn't really possible at this point.

So what you're saying then is that they got to you

 

[jordanmills]

Is it possible to get a part time job paid in bitcoin? Could I buy some property with bitcoin?

Yes and yes.

Bitcoin Jobs | Work for better money

#bitcoin-otc order book

You're proud of paying your taxes? With all the fraud, waste, and abuse that our tax dollars goto I feel disgusting whenever I pay my taxes. Speaking more of the federal taxes here... I think our property taxes are a bit high due to mismanaged school districts, but for the most part Texas is great on taxes.

I think he was really just here to make sure everyone knows he's a troll.

 

[jordanmills]

The International Money Fund and World Bank will support and push the bitcoin to the point that individual country currencies become bulky, undesirable forms of completing transactions. They will allow economies to surge while governments waste more and more of wealth they don't have expanding their power through welfare programs. Just as the global wealth is peaking as determined by virtual currency and populations are almost entirely dependent and under the control of massive governments, they will EMP the whole thing and wipe out all individual property, wealth, self-reliance, and ultimately freedom. The world population will be cast into chaos under a well-managed, finely tuned, single totalitarian regime.

Puff, puff, pass. It's almost time for the Two Minutes Hate.

Hmm not impossible. Unlike the people who say that the governments will just take control of it or shut it down, you seem to know at least some of how it works on a technical level.

It's all but guaranteed that the blockchain will survive in many places though. Long as you have that, the currency continues.

 

[Southpaw]

Not necessarily... Did you hear about what happened in Cyprus recently? Don't think that something like that couldn't happen here.
.

And there was talk of that before it happened. I understand that not everyone keeps up on what is going on around them, but that's on them. Can it happen here? Sure? Will it happen overnight? I don't think it will.

I suppose it really depends on what you need to liquidate and how much time you have to do it.
Like they say, "Mo Money, Mo Problems!!"

 

[jordanmills]

Also, where does the average bitcoin user keep his wallet/private key? If it is located on a computer they have on or around them, isn't that able to be seized as well if the feds come for your private property as well as your bank account, which is often the case and certainly would be if they knew you to be a bitcoin user engaged in illegal activity? Isn't this what happened to the operator of Silk Road?

That depends on several factors. Your wallet contains your private key, in addition to some other things like addresses (an effectively infinite number of which can be generated as necessary and can always be recognized in the blockchain even if you lose your record of them), hints (technical stuff), and contacts. Your private key is almost always locked down with encryption that makes it practically impossible to decrypt for the near future (next hundred years or so, and it can always be reencrypted to a newer or better standard) unless it is being used (i.e. you're signing a transaction). That is reasonable enough for most people to feel comfortable keeping wallets with moderate amounts (roughly the balance of someone's checking account) on a computer that sees normal use and stays connected to the internet.

If your wallet is lost, it is effectively impossible to recover the keys that allow you to sign new transactions. Luckily, wallets can be copied as much as you want so most people keep several wallets in several places. I have my regular wallet on almost every computer I own, most backup drives, several online data services, email, etc. Of course they all have their private key encrypted. I'm confident that they could not be cracked through a direct technical attack. Note that unless you encrypt the entire wallet, which the official client can't do by default, the entire list of addresses generated by that wallet file can be extracted easily.

DRP (Dread Pirate Roberts, AKA Ross Ulbricht, not Westley) made a few non-technical mistakes. First, he liked to run his mouth. He bragged about contracting assassinations, and there are always details let out when you talk. Second, he wasn't careful with his info. He used an email address linked to his personal identity when trying to hire developers for silk road. Third, he didn't keep his passwords safe. He apparently stored them in a way that the feds could find them on his computers, or he straight up gave them away. It actually took a while for the feds to get at some of the BTC balance on the silk road servers because they were fairly secure. The frontend servers have "hot wallets" that the server can access at any time so they can make live transactions and generate addresses. Those wallets were relatively easy to crack (basically, the private keys were either stored unencrypted or the server had the password to decrypt them). There are also storage or "cold wallets" that come online rarely or require manual action to transfer balances out (the hot wallets can transfer balances in without the cold wallets being online).

Basically, DPR was brilliant but also kinda dumb. He made some basic technical mistakes.

 

[jordanmills]

What he said. Bitcoin ultimately and absolutely requires one thing, and one thing only .... electricity. Take away that, not all that historically stable, resource, and you have absolutely nothing.

Actually, it does not.

 

[jordanmills]

Just so I understand (vaguely), the "wallet" is kept on an individual "machine", & if lost or stolen, all Bitcoin is lost to the owner?
There is no remote access?

Not really. You could keep your wallet on one machine, but that would not be very smart. Instead, most people keep many copies as backups. And of them can sign transactions for any/all balance attributable to the key.

 

[jordanmills]

If you hold the key on a personal computer,tablet, etc. and it is seized by the feds, those bitcoins are useless to you as well as them. However my point was that you would lose the value of them just like if they seized your bank account. The OP of the post I quoted mentioned that it could not be seized like a bank account, but it in fact can in a situation where the place the wallet is kept is no longer accessible to the owner.

Actually that is not correct. You could always use a copy of the wallet and still have access to the entire balance. Assuming you were silly and used an easily guessable password or left it somewhere on the computer, and assuming it took the feds a few days to find the password to the private key, you or someone else could very easily send the entire balance to the address of a new wallet that has not been compromised.

 

[jordanmills]

So what you're saying then is that they got to you

Not sure who said what you put in that box, but it's a very reasonable outcome. Lots of people already have mesh networks and there are organized groups that have them in their neighborhoods and communities. I used to participate in a users group that was setting up a mesh in the area. Technically, it's very feasible to do that with common off the shelf parts. Might cost thirty bucks to set up your own mesh node that can hit at least one other node five or ten miles away. People just use commercial service providers because it's easier and faster.

 

[Southpaw]

Actually that is not correct. You could always use a copy of the wallet and still have access to the entire balance. Assuming you were silly and used an easily guessable password or left it somewhere on the computer, and assuming it took the feds a few days to find the password to the private key, you or someone else could very easily send the entire balance to the address of a new wallet that has not been compromised.

Thanks for clairifying.

 

[TheDan]

So what you're saying then is that they got to you

lol what?

 

[OFFascist]

I do have some concerns about it's deflationary nature, however. The perfect currency would expand and contract with the growth and shrinkage of the market in which it's traded, meaning inflation and deflation would both be zero. I'm afraid a deflationary currency that has a defined fixed limit will be abandoned before that limit is even reached because people will begin to realize that only the people who had it for a very long time are extracting any value out of it.

It will be interesting how the deflationary aspects of it work out. Even though it will eventually be deflationary in nature, I think it will work much better and differently than gold for example. They say you can't run our global economy on gold alone since there isn't enough to go around.

While it's not practical to subdivide gold to infinitesimally small units, the same is not true about bitcoin. As the price of bitcoin rises then people will just be paying with smaller and smaller portions of it.

If the price swings of bitcoin would stabilize somewhat I could see people using bitcoins to save money their money in instead of a bank. Banks pay crap for interest on savings accounts, the rise in bitcoin prices caused by it's deflationary nature could do much better than what a typical savings account could.