Failure to ID.......

[benenglish]

You cannot be arrested in Texas for minor Speeding violation, Open Alcohol Container and Use of Portable Wireless Communication Device for Electronic Messaging.(citations only)

Ok. But I have had a policeman offer to cuff me, stuff me, and take me to jail for failing to signal a turn 100 feet before the turn.

I can't keep track of all the details and special circumstances that apply during police/public interactions. I'm not surprised that officers occasionally screw up.

 

[Sasquatch]

Ok. But I have had a policeman offer to cuff me, stuff me, and take me to jail for failing to signal a turn 100 feet before the turn.

I can't keep track of all the details and special circumstances that apply during police/public interactions. I'm not surprised that officers occasionally screw up.

I believe it was here in Texas where a woman was arrested for failing to restrain her children in a seat belt, and that case wound up before SCOTUS, which upheld the arrest. The fallout from that was that police could, in fact, arrest for minor violations though it's typically not done.

 

[candcallen]

The real answer to this question is what hill do you really want to die on and when.

 

[Axxe55]

Growing up, there were 2 local cops that always harassed us & pulled us over.
Usually for ... license plate bulb is out.... hmm seems to be working fine now.

Also driving my buddy home & leaving the neighborhood at midnight. Not speeding or doing any thing wrong.

These cops are the same types that pull you over for driving while black.
They have no reason other than to harass you & hopefully find something on you.

Some cops are just dicks and are going to do such things, because they think they can get away with it. But still that had nothing to do with my previous post. I was harassed by a few cops when I was younger for long hair and fast car.

Also, cops use to profile people based on many factors and where they were. Ain't right, but they did it. I suspect that some still do.

Every member of my family, including me, has been pulled over while doing everything lawfully. In my case, the officer wanted to know why I was in that area. In the case of my mom and sis, they've been pulled over multiple times for being out driving too late at night. In all those cases, the police didn't even run the license; they looked at it, listened to why we were there, and sent us on our way.

Those experiences are decades old, btw. Maybe things are different now.

But the stops weren't for just checking for ID or a DL.

In many cases years ago, officers patrolled an area, and got to know the area, and sort of who belonged and who didn't and what people drove. They knew their neighborhood. When strange cars, or people were in that area, their attention level went up.

In the case of your mother and sister, it might have been more of a concern for their safety. Just a guess.

 

[ScottDLS]

I believe it was here in Texas where a woman was arrested for failing to restrain her children in a seat belt, and that case wound up before SCOTUS, which upheld the arrest. The fallout from that was that police could, in fact, arrest for minor violations though it's typically not done.

Correct. Then as a result of this the Texas Legislature specifically prohibited arrest for certain class C traffic offenses. Though I'm not sure if seatbelt violation was one o them.

 

[DoubleDuty]

He should have shown them his ID and then said legally I do not need to show you my ID unless I am under arrest. So you need to quit violating peoples rights.

 

[candcallen]

Failure to restrain your kids in a car isnt the same as not wearing a seatbelts yourself.

Its child endangerment at a minimum. Not a minor traffic ticket.

As a person who's earliest memory is flying around a car during a car wreck back before car seats were a thing I can confirm the fact that you are not going to protect your kids in a car without a restraint.

Just commenting on the post.

 

[Texas45]

For the same reason you don't allow a search of your house without a warrant. People who allow such illegal searches are the true sheepie.

Totally different MY house is MY property.
Same with my vehicle as to consent.
Sure I can refuse to ID and or allow search of car.
Why if Im legal.
I know whats in my car.
Axxes above situation the dude really should CLEAN his used cars out.

I was referring to being in a public local and lets say you observe a situation LE arrives and asks witnesses for ID.

Not a problem.


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[Sasquatch]

Failure to restrain your kids in a car isnt the same as not wearing a seatbelts yourself.

Its child endangerment at a minimum. Not a minor traffic ticket.

As a person who's earliest memory is flying around a car during a car wreck back before car seats were a thing I can confirm the fact that you are not going to protect your kids in a car without a restraint.

Just commenting on the post.

That's not what she was arrested for or charged with though, the arrest was literally for a traffic violation.

 

[candcallen]

That's not what she was arrested for or charged with though, the arrest was literally for a traffic violation.

Sounds like they did her a favor. Trying to send a message not create a felon who loses their kids. Others have not been treated with such deference in similar situations.

 

[ScottDLS]

Failure to restrain your kids in a car isnt the same as not wearing a seatbelts yourself.

Its child endangerment at a minimum. Not a minor traffic ticket.

As a person who's earliest memory is flying around a car during a car wreck back before car seats were a thing I can confirm the fact that you are not going to protect your kids in a car without a restraint.

Just commenting on the post.

Unless one is drunk or other circumstances, failure to have a child in a seatbelt or car seat is not anything other than a traffic offense. See Texas Penal Code § 22.041. Abandoning or Endangering Child or find some other relevant statute that says otherwise.

 

[Dougw1515]

Yup... after reading all'a this thread I, without a doubt, am ready for the Bar Exam!

 

[cycleguy2300]

They ask for your ID for the same reason that they drive around on patrol and run license plates on their computers when they are driving down the road. They are looking for wants and warrants on the owner who is probably the driver. That's really what the cops want your ID for in most cases.

True, and while it isn't highly intrusive to provide ID and in 99% of cases I would provide if ASKED with any sort of politeness, or even as long as it wasn't fairly rude. There are times if asked or DEMANDED I would tell the officer to bugger off.

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[cycleguy2300]

Just curious, how many times have YOU been stopped and asked for DL when obeying all traffic codes, and all vehicle standards are up to specification?

My experience and observations, cops have more important things to worry about that just stopping lawful drivers to check out their ID or DL for no reason.

I ran into people about once a week who upon being stopped for speeding (laser, there isn't much argument who it was or how fast...) would be so entitled as to believe they "couldn't have been speeding" and therefore refuse initially to provide their DL. After I explain to be released with a citation i have to be able to properly ID them and their only option if they don't want to provide me with ID is to speak with a judge now after being arrested. I haven't had one decide they were that innocent and they hand me their ID.

Just like any other experience manager I provide choices and explanation. I may hold the trump cards and can force the issue by arrest, but it is better I let them decide providing ID is the best option and let them think they won somehow.

That said if you really think you were stopped in error, ask for a supervisor. I have had a number of people ask for mine and while it hasn't yet changed anything for them other than "winning" something and hearing the same thing I told them, but coming from someone with stripes, it usually helps smooth things so I can get on to the next stop.

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[candcallen]

Unless one is drunk or other circumstances, failure to have a child in a seatbelt or car seat is not anything other than a traffic offense. See Texas Penal Code § 22.041. Abandoning or Endangering Child or find some other relevant statute that says otherwise.

It all depends on how its charged. The totality of the circumstances. It can be a ticket or a child endangerment charge and there have been convictions both ways. There have been endangerment convictions for speeding with kids in the car.

Totality of circumstances.

The law is seldom as black and white as its printed. Especially after its application develops case law and prescident.

 

[Caliber]

You cannot be arrested in Texas for minor Speeding violation, Open Alcohol Container and Use of Portable Wireless Communication Device for Electronic Messaging.(citations only)

This is true and is pursuant to the Texas Transportation Code (not the Penal Code). However, if you refuse to sign the ticket which is a promise to appear, then you will be arrested.

 

[cycleguy2300]

You make a very good point about the Transportation Code and am aware that Texas says that you must show your DL if requested even with no reason. But let me ask this. What if you don't stop? By turning on the lights and pulling you over, the police officer is detaining you or arguably given previous cases in Texas, arresting you. The officer has no lawful authority to detain (stop) you or arrest you absent reasonable suspicion or probable cause, respectively. So while the TTC says an officer can pull you over just to check to see if you have a license (absent any other reason), this violates SCOTUS precedent and was held (federally) to be an unlawful violation of your 4th amendment rights. Since it is so easy to come up with a plausible suspicion of some traffic violation this may seem a distinction without a difference, but it is technically unlawful for an officer to stop you, just to see if you have a license.

Correct. SCOTUS has ruled a stop/detention solely to check license status violates the 4A. Pretext stops, i.e. I see a known drug dealer leave a known drug house and I find a ticky-tack traffic violation to detain him so I can see if any other crimes are afoot is 100% OK since there is RS/PC for the detention and I don't have to strictly limit my investigation to THAT crime.

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[cycleguy2300]

You cannot be arrested in Texas for minor Speeding violation, Open Alcohol Container and Use of Portable Wireless Communication Device for Electronic Messaging.(citations only)

Actually you most certainly can be arrested for those you just have to be offered the opportunity to sign a citation as a promise to appear before the judge on such-and-such a date. Refuse to sign and it's time for bracelets and we'll go see the judge now.

I looked up TC 545.4251 and while punishable by fine only, it makes no mention of a citation being required prior to arrest.

(e) An offense under this section is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of at least $25 and not more than $99 unless it is shown on the trial of the offense that the defendant has been previously convicted at least one time of an offense under this section, in which event the offense is punishable by a fine of at least $100 and not more than $200.

(f) Notwithstanding Subsection (e), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $4,000 and confinement in jail for a term not to exceed one year if it is shown on the trial of the offense that the defendant caused the death or serious bodily injury of another person.

Arrest to be presented to a judge isn't punishment, and you may not even go to jail during bankers hours, we would go straight to the muni judge who would set you a court date if you promise to come back (just like a ticket)

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[cycleguy2300]

I believe it was here in Texas where a woman was arrested for failing to restrain her children in a seat belt, and that case wound up before SCOTUS, which upheld the arrest. The fallout from that was that police could, in fact, arrest for minor violations though it's typically not done.

That was Atwater v City of Lago Vista, she wasn't wearing a seat belt and refused to sign the citation.

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[cycleguy2300]

The real answer to this question is what hill do you really want to die on and when.

Yes, you cannot die on them all.

I will choose to provide ID most of the time even when not required, but it is my choice and my right to provide or refuses as the law allows and I see fit.

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