FTF gun sale tards

[40Arpent]

I skipped some steps in the middle. Without proof of sale, if person A has their BOS from when they bought it, I would expect that the law will side with person A since they have the most proof of ownership. So person B is arrested for theft and the gun is returned to person A.

But what if an alien came down in a UFO and took the gun from person B before the cops got to his house? What happens then?

 

[Maverick44]

Your fears of not getting a BoS are unfounded.


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Where have I said I fear not getting a BOS? Go on, go find it and quote me, I'll wait.

I have stated I don't have an irrational fear of them, nothing more. I have never required them in my sales, but I have nothing against those who do.

If you are willing to talk about the beliefs behind your decisions, we can help you get over it. You are simply mistaken, or confused. Philosophically the "BOS for firearms" is in the
"common sense gun control" camp. The mere idea is wrong.

My belief is that making a big deal over something that is nothing more than a receipt is pointless. Show me one case where someone who had committed no crime has ever gotten into trouble because of a BOS. Show me that, and I will admit I'm wrong.

If we are counting I am firmly against BOS

And of the numerous other members in the "I don't care" camp?

Again, RIF, never said anything specifically about the majority/minority's count referring solely to TGT. The wording I used was "this community" referring to the gun community at large and not just our little slice of heaven here. I thought that was obvious being I believe I used the words "gun community " prior to that statement as well as after.





As I stated, my concerns were for a later time down the road if the gun community continued on the road to accepting BOS as SOP. SO being unfounded is all it can be until that point in the future you can prove such.

And again, I never said the word "mandatory" anywhere. Not sure where you are reading where I said that word in any of my posts.

I've been in the "community" for some time. More forums than you can count over about a decade at this point. This is the ONLY place I have seen this become an actual issue for a forum. This forum is the first place I have seen this issue even really discussed. I do not believe your overall view of the "gun community" is completely accurate.

 

[Younggun]

If it's not a big deal, why are you still here making an big deal out of it.




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[Maverick44]

If it's not a big deal, why are you still here making an big deal out of it.




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My issue isn't with the BOS, it's with people making fools of themselves over it. You and a small number of members seem intent on making a big deal out of this every time a BOS is even mentioned. It's a receipt, not some evil backdoor registration method, not some method that jackbooted thugs will use to frame you for a crime, and certainly not the dangerous thing you make them out to be. It is a receipt, a slip of paper with no more power than the kind you would get from Walmart.

 

[Younggun]

It's stupid. Simple as that. Completely worthless and stupid.

As I mentioned further back, I've pledged to spend my life battling against the powers of stupid.


It has less power than anything you'd get from Walmart as well, because the BoS is COMPLETELY worthless.


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[Maverick44]

It's stupid. Simple as that. Completely worthless and stupid.

As I mentioned further back, I've pledged to spend my life battling against the powers of stupid.


It has less power than anything you'd get from Walmart as well, because the BoS is COMPLETELY worthless.


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Then why are you wasting so much of your time on something you consider completely worthless and powerless? Go clean some guns or something.

 

[Younggun]

Because it's stupid and I will fight against it. Stupid is bad.

Also, it's worthless as a defense or protection, I'm sure the ATF can find a way to us it against you and though.


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[Younggun]

Been hunting for this.

Originally posted by renegade.

Renegade's Avatar
Renegade said:
01-09-2014 01:03 PM
Quote Originally Posted by AustinN4 View Post
Thank you for that reference, but Shipley was conviced of selling a large number of firearms over a short period of time, acting as a strawman buyer for others, and lying to investigators:/quote


Renegade: Yes that is what he was convicted of, but that is not where the investigation started. It started with a trace a 50BMG and he provided a BOS for it. He had the mistaken belief it would help him. He had the mistaken belief he had nothing to hide. Unknown to him, it was the starting point of an investigation targeted at him.

Had he provided them nothing, then nothing would have most likely happened. Had he kept no records of his purchases and sales, they would not have known how many firearms he bought or sold. His own record keeping did him in. If he had STFU, he could not have been convicted of lying. Ironic since he is an FBI Agent, and they have convicted dozens such as Martha Stewart of lying, even though they could not get charges on the underlying investigation.

Further reading and info sprinkled over a couple pages
https://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/general-firearms-ammo/54307-bills-sale-9.html


BoS will never help, ATF can find lots of ways to make it hurt.


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[Maverick44]

Been hunting for this.

Originally posted by renegade.

Renegade's Avatar
Renegade said:
01-09-2014 01:03 PM
Quote Originally Posted by AustinN4 View Post
Thank you for that reference, but Shipley was conviced of selling a large number of firearms over a short period of time, acting as a strawman buyer for others, and lying to investigators:/quote


Renegade: Yes that is what he was convicted of, but that is not where the investigation started. It started with a trace a 50BMG and he provided a BOS for it. He had the mistaken belief it would help him. He had the mistaken belief he had nothing to hide. Unknown to him, it was the starting point of an investigation targeted at him.

Had he provided them nothing, then nothing would have most likely happened. Had he kept no records of his purchases and sales, they would not have known how many firearms he bought or sold. His own record keeping did him in. If he had STFU, he could not have been convicted of lying. Ironic since he is an FBI Agent, and they have convicted dozens such as Martha Stewart of lying, even though they could not get charges on the underlying investigation.

Further reading and info sprinkled over a couple pages
https://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/general-firearms-ammo/54307-bills-sale-9.html


BoS will never help, ATF can find lots of ways to make it hurt.


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Hmm, He was buying and selling guns without an FFL, illegally buying guns for others, and lied to investigators, all of which he had to of known were highly against the law, and your focusing on the BOS? I think the moral here is don't be a fucking idiot and commit felonies.

 

[Dawico]

Hmm, He was buying and selling guns without an FFL, illegally buying guns for others, and lied to investigators, all of which he had to of known were highly against the law, and your focusing on the BOS? I think the moral here is don't be a fucking idiot and commit felonies.

Keeping a paper trail to prove it probably wasn't the best idea either though.

Sure makes it easy for them to convict you.

 

[Younggun]

Hmm, He was buying and selling guns without an FFL, illegally buying guns for others, and lied to investigators, all of which he had to of known were highly against the law, and your focusing on the BOS? I think the moral here is don't be a fucking idiot and commit felonies.

Lying to investigators was based on documents he said he didn't have.


They ask you about a couple guns. You show them a BoS for one, says you always keep records but another is missing (maybe you misplaced it). They get a warrant and find it, arrest you for hiding evidence.

ATF justifies their job by catching people. They appreciate your cooperation in giving them evidence against you.

Also, if you followed the link you'd see an entire investigation was opened due to ONE rifle being found, at which time he started giving them records. Good thing he had all those records to **** himself with.

Also remember, the ATF doesn't define anything about how many guns you need to sell to be a dealer. Maybe on the day they see you it's only one a year.


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[Southpaw]

I've been in the "community" for some time. More forums than you can count over about a decade at this point. This is the ONLY place I have seen this become an actual issue for a forum. This forum is the first place I have seen this issue even really discussed. I do not believe your overall view of the "gun community" is completely accurate.

It's good that you are only 25. There still is hope for you.

Be swell

 

[Maverick44]

It's good that you are only 25. There still is hope for you.

Be swell

Just means I'm not set in my ways like some of you old farts.

 

[Southpaw]

Just means I'm not set in my ways like some of you old farts.

Just stay off my lawn dammit!!!!!

 

[Hoji]

Been hunting for this.

Originally posted by renegade.

Renegade's Avatar
Renegade said:
01-09-2014 01:03 PM
Quote Originally Posted by AustinN4 View Post
Thank you for that reference, but Shipley was conviced of selling a large number of firearms over a short period of time, acting as a strawman buyer for others, and lying to investigators:/quote


Renegade: Yes that is what he was convicted of, but that is not where the investigation started. It started with a trace a 50BMG and he provided a BOS for it. He had the mistaken belief it would help him. He had the mistaken belief he had nothing to hide. Unknown to him, it was the starting point of an investigation targeted at him.

Had he provided them nothing, then nothing would have most likely happened. Had he kept no records of his purchases and sales, they would not have known how many firearms he bought or sold. His own record keeping did him in. If he had STFU, he could not have been convicted of lying. Ironic since he is an FBI Agent, and they have convicted dozens such as Martha Stewart of lying, even though they could not get charges on the underlying investigation.

Further reading and info sprinkled over a couple pages
https://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/general-firearms-ammo/54307-bills-sale-9.html


BoS will never help, ATF can find lots of ways to make it hurt.


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Just came in to post this. Google "FBI agent John Shipley" and you can read all about the fucking he received that was done in a very large part, to a bill of sale.

 

[Hoji]

A bill of sale protects both parties.

Be well.

John Shipley would vehemently disagree with this asinine statement.

 

[TX OMFS]

There's an easy solution to this. Just never sell a firearm.

Exactly. People sell guns?

What I don't see anyone bringing up is the protection for the buyer. If person A sells a gun to person B with no BOS then person A reports the gun stolen, what proof does person B have that says otherwise. So now person A has the money and the gun and person B is out the money AND risking their freedom on a he said / she said case.

Is it really worth that risk over a simple name and signature?

I could see this. I would want a BOS if I was buying or selling a very expensive weapon. I'd say $5k or more.

Quit making sense.

Freedom is hard.

 

[Kar98]

 

[TheDan]

I think the moral here is don't be a fucking idiot and commit felonies.

Good luck with that.

 

[BRD@66]

In