Glaser rounds

[ROGER4314]

These guys know their stuff. They know a Hell of a lot about firearms, ballistics, tactics, training and usually you can trust what they say. It just pisses me off to see a new guy with 40 posts getting hammered by old timers. The new guy doesn't know that it's his right to tell the guys to get off of his ass. He can tell them to F off if they lay it on too thick. You don't need to take a beating.

A rule of thumb is this....If they aren't winning the argument, or you still have a differing opinion, they get "louder", turn it into a personal attack, infer that you're stupid or nuts. It doesn't seem to register that you are entitled to a different opinion.

Flash

 

[M. Sage]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Brassfetcher_evaluates_9mm_Glaser_Safety_Slug.pdf

The IWBA (membership was DOCTORS who studied gunshot wounds professionally) called for 12-14.5" penetration in calibrated gelatin. Glasers don't make that.

Skin is highly elastic. It's probably the second toughest tissue to punch through, behind bone, and the calibrated gelatin simulates muscle. These will not penetrate deep enough to ensure incapacitation, or even to ensure that vital organs are hit (one in the same for the most part). Relying on Glasers or bird shot is plain stupid.

Here you can see their test results (no block pics, but poke around the site for those) for shotgun loads, including game loads that every idiot thinks will work just like a slug. They don't and real life bears that out. They make a very gruesome-looking but shallow and superficial wound. Anybody who gives up after being shot with birdshot wasn't serious about killing you. Anybody who dies after being shot with birdshot was either extremely unlucky, very unhealthy or simply decided "I'm shot, gonna die now", which really does happen.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12 Gauge/12 Gauge Shotgun Summary Table.pdf

 

[M. Sage]

Funny. We get the same kinds of dialog on a motorcycle site if you ask people about which is the best oil, petroleum-based or synthetic...

Lots of hearsay, barely any real 1st-hand knowledge, lots of opinions, staunch personal opinions that each side is full of idiots... Regurgitation of net stuff I can look up on my own...

My mistake to ask on that way, but definitely stirred up something!

I should have asked, "has anyone shot a live human with this ammo and had good or bad results?"

Synthetic is better overall; more stable when it comes to viscosity over time, and usually a bit better flow rate when cold. The only real argument against them is the old saw about them causing leaks, but modern synthetics aren't the race oils of yesteryear that caused that problem; they have seal conditioners added.

 

[Pyrogenic]

Synthetic is better overall; more stable when it comes to viscosity over time, and usually a bit better flow rate when cold. The only real argument against them is the old saw about them causing leaks, but modern synthetics aren't the race oils of yesteryear that caused that problem; they have seal conditioners added.

Touche, my friend; touche!

 

[Pyrogenic]

These guys know their stuff. They know a Hell of a lot about firearms, ballistics, tactics, training and usually you can trust what they say. It just pisses me off to see a new guy with 40 posts getting hammered by old timers. The new guy doesn't know that it's his right to tell the guys to get off of his ass. He can tell them to F off if they lay it on too thick. You don't need to take a beating.

A rule of thumb is this....If they aren't winning the argument, or you still have a differing opinion, they get "louder", turn it into a personal attack, infer that you're stupid or nuts. It doesn't seem to register that you are entitled to a different opinion.

Flash

Well thanks. Lucky I wasn't defending a position I staunchly believe, and really won't be throwing them out. But they are interesting and merit an understanding from all sources including this group, and others.

I'm just getting into this game, but I know a few things about debate, which is not everyone's strength.

I do appreciate your comments.

 

[TundraWookiee]

You guys do this constantly. If the OP wants to use Glasers, then he should go ahead and do that. You beat down opposing points of view, and keep hammering away until the guy is ready to toss his ammo away. What the Hell is wrong with you?

I see a role for Glasers in close quarters and crowded environments. In fact, I'll drag my Glasers back out to utilize them in home defense just to spite you. If he wants to use Glasers then speak your mind as a fellow member, then get off of his ass and let him formulate his own opinion.

Flash

I could be wrong but I think they just see it as a point worth arguing. Wouldn't you keep pushing the issue if you believed it could save someone's life? If I thought that tin foil made great body armor despite all of the evidence against it, wouldn't you feel an obligation to hammer it into my head that I'm wrong?

Just the way I look at it. Sure, people could use a more welcoming approach but keep in mind that sole of us deal with the same arguments day after day and get sick of tiptoeing around.

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[SIG_Fiend]

The way I see it, why beat around the bush and waste a new guy's time? I've been on too many other forums that have dozens if not hundreds of the same exact threads on the same exact topics, to the point that you are looking for an answer like a needle in a stack of needles. It's all meaningless and wastes people's time. So, when we reply with something like "they're trash", or what may come off as a short or antagonistic response, it's simply because we don't want to waste other people's time and would rather give them the best answer, we've been able to find, as easily as possible. Many of us have shot plenty of animals before. I've never personally shot a human however. That being said, there has been a whole hell of a lot of good quality, legitimate research done by some very knowledgeable people, like the IWBA. Doctor Gary K. Roberts is one of the people that was involved with the IWBA, and he still continues to test new loads of ammo to date. These are people that have put all the "theories" to test, and have come to logical, scientific conclusions on exactly what is and what isn't. A lot of those studies and conclusions have involved study of a whole hell of a lot of autopsies.

Despite all of the scientific advancements in the realm of ballistic wounding factors, people like to continually tout long-since refuted statistics, wounding factors, or ballistic claims about certain types of ammo. Marshall & Sanow are two of the names you will commonly still see out there. Those guys pulled the wool over a lot of people's eyes for many years, and pretty much all of their claims have been disproven as lies, inaccuracies, and in some cases likely complete bullshit because of their complete lack of or at least refusal to show the sources for their info. For example, the ubiquitous "one shot stop" (of which I believe M&A coined the term or at least the popularity of that "statistic"). Sounds great up front, until you find out how they derived their stats, that they basically threw out lots of defensive/officer involved shooting cases that didn't really support their desired end goal. In common sense terms, the "one shot stop" doesn't even make any sense, as the only thing that will physically stop anyone instantaneously is an upper spinal or CNS shot. Everything else is a roll of the dice and relies on blood loss, organ damage, or the most unpredictable factor: the psychological stop. The internet and forums all over the place are still cluttered with a lot of this BS, and people still repeat it to this day. So at the end of the day, if we sound "short", it's because we don't like to waste people's time with BS here, just rock solid, scientifically proven fact.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. That being said, while we don't intend to antagonize or "pick on" people, if someone is going to continually spread answers or data that are statistically untrue, completely disproven, etc. then yeah we're probably going to respond. It does no one any good to sit back and let someone pollute a bunch of other people's minds with half truths, inaccuracies, and lies. There has to be some form of quality control. If someone decides to start posting about how "The .22lr has killed more people than any caliber, therefore everyone should only use a .22lr for self defense." then yeah, we're going to respond so that others know that, while it is their opinion, it's probably an inaccurate/wrong one.

 

[Pyrogenic]

And on top if that, they have no stock and are building to order. Cancelled my order and am sticking with the Hornaday's Critical Defense and HydraShok for out and about.

 

[dashmatrix]

Ok. See I've got close neighbors and kids in the house, and I am impressed by the lower possibility of my hitting someone in the next room or across the driveway with a missed shot. Once I leave the house I'm carrying hydra Shok's or hornady CD's.

I like the idea of quickly grabbing the wife and kids in the closet with me and turning the house into swiss cheese. You'd be amazed at what a .45 ACP jacketed ball range round will do to subflooring and rogue cartel members below. Safe on the second floor while it's raining meteorites through the ceiling. Last thing you wanna do in home defense scenario is go all "Mulder and Skulley" with a flashlight clearing rooms. Just collect the family in a room with you. Lock the door, yell you have a gun and called the cops. If they come up on the room, add ventilation.

P.S. - yes I'm trying to add humor to a pointless discussion sorry.

 

[Pyrogenic]

Pretty funny dude. Other than the style of the criticisms by certain old farts, I don't find it totally pointless though...

 

[M. Sage]

I like the idea of quickly grabbing the wife and kids in the closet with me and turning the house into swiss cheese. You'd be amazed at what a .45 ACP jacketed ball range round will do to subflooring and rogue cartel members below. Safe on the second floor while it's raining meteorites through the ceiling. Last thing you wanna do in home defense scenario is go all "Mulder and Skulley" with a flashlight clearing rooms. Just collect the family in a room with you. Lock the door, yell you have a gun and called the cops. If they come up on the room, add ventilation.

P.S. - yes I'm trying to add humor to a pointless discussion sorry.

If it educates anybody, it's not pointless.

Just the same: Grab the family and cover the door. Forget yelling. Just cover that door (or whatever choke point you prefer).

Ambush is the best way. Going out looking for trouble? Not unless you have to.

 

[dashmatrix]

If it educates anybody, it's not pointless.

Just the same: Grab the family and cover the door. Forget yelling. Just cover that door (or whatever choke point you prefer).

Ambush is the best way. Going out looking for trouble? Not unless you have to.

maybe a warning shot through someone's forehead ?

 

[M. Sage]

maybe a warning shot through someone's forehead ?

Stops 'em every time.

Seriously, if you're in a fight for your life, there ain't "fair". There's "alive" and there's "dead". Pick one. I do not plan on racking a shotgun (or anything else). I plan on picking up a loaded gun, taking the safety off and being ready. I do not plan on giving a verbal warning. That's why my door is locked. I do not plan on doing anything but covering the nearest choke point that anybody will have to cross with my finger on the trigger and squeezing repeatedly if someone is dumb and unlucky enough to step onto my sight picture.

And after he falls, I'm waiting for any friends he brought.