Houston police: 4 officers wounded, 2 of 3 suspects dead

[andre3k]

• Confirm that the brown stuff is actually heroin.
• Actually watch the house for a few days (or even a few hours) to see what sort of volume they're moving.
• While watching the house, see if it's possible to discern a pattern of movement and behavior that would enable arresting the principles outside of space they nominally control.
• Make a couple of buys by LEOs so that the affidavit for the warrant doesn't live or die on the quality of the search of the CI, something that can't be confirmed at this point.

That would be a nice start. I'm sure I could think of more.

My experience with how much investigation should precede direct action is apparently not in sync with the way HPD undercover drug enforcement works. Live and learn, I suppose.

Warrant looked perfectly fine to me. It's not a police report and won't detail every single thing that was done during a two week investigation.

The Chief acknowledged today that the dope was tested after the CI made the buy. Came back as Heroin.

As far and UC's buying dope, some are good at it and others absolutely suck at it. If I had a good CI, I'm sending his ass in there to make the buy. That's what he's there for.

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[toddnjoyce]

What we have here is a rush to judgment that these officers overstepped their bounds. ...Me, I am sorry 5 officers got shot.

What we have here is two potential criminals killed, four LEO shot, one LEO knee injury, and 4 additional officers on scene that did not discharge a weapon, if I recall the tally correctly.

The question I have is whether the reward was worth it or not.

While it sucks all around what happened, from a tactical standpoint this operation appears to have been poorly executed. And if HPD isn’t professional enough to at least address that perception instead of appearing to hunker down, then they deserve all the bashing they get.

Like it or not, LE in most of America has to deal with the fact that collectively, more than a few bad apples are ruining it for the rest. In situations like these, brutal, timely transparency is called for.

 

[Eli]

If they hit the wrong house, a lot of things went wrong prior to them serving the warrant.

I'm guessing a LOT went wrong with this, and there's a rumor the Texas Rangers are investigating the whole affair. I strongly suspect that HPD messed up, and a lot more than a 'no knock' warrant that never should have been applied for let alone issued.
If the deceased couple weren't Whites over age 50, this would be national news - along with riots.

Eli

 

[andre3k]

What we have here is two potential criminals killed, four LEO shot, one LEO knee injury, and 4 additional officers on scene that did not discharge a weapon, if I recall the tally correctly.

The question I have is whether the reward was worth it or not.

While it sucks all around what happened, from a tactical standpoint this operation appears to have been poorly executed. And if HPD isn’t professional enough to at least address that perception instead of appearing to hunker down, then they deserve all the bashing they get.

Like it or not, LE in most of America has to deal with the fact that collectively, more than a few bad apples are ruining it for the rest. In situations like these, brutal, timely transparency is called for.

I'll just leave this here.

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[toddnjoyce]

I'll just leave this here.

View attachment 161655

Yep. Saw that, too. Don’t know what it has to do with my post though other than reinforce the fact this specific operation went sideways in a bad way.

I guess I’m jaded from my military career. When there’s a bad hit, you don’t get to investigate yourself.

 

[andre3k]

I'm guessing a LOT went wrong with this, and there's a rumor the Texas Rangers are investigating the whole affair. I strongly suspect that HPD messed up, and a lot more than a 'no knock' warrant that never should have been applied for let alone issued.
If the deceased couple weren't Whites over age 50, this would be national news - along with riots.

Eli

I'm guessing you didn't bother to read the Warrant Affidavit, listen to the press conference or bother to read any of the previous posts.

The Texas Rangers have nothing to do with this case. The Harris County DA's Office and and unit within HPD that handles only OIS's are working it.

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[andre3k]

Yep. Saw that, too. Don’t know what it has to do with my post though other than reinforce the fact this specific operation went sideways in a bad way.

I guess I’m jaded from my military career. When there’s a bad hit, you don’t get to investigate yourself.

The couple got the drop on them when they made entry. It's as simple as that.

When you stack up and make entry that's the nature of the beast. If you fight a motivated offender then people are going to get shot.

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[avvidclif]

Huh, from what I read they busted the door, the dog attacked and was shot, THEN the guy come from the back of the house with a gun????

 

[sharkey]

What we have here is two potential criminals killed, four LEO shot, one LEO knee injury, and 4 additional officers on scene that did not discharge a weapon, if I recall the tally correctly.

The question I have is whether the reward was worth it or not.

While it sucks all around what happened, from a tactical standpoint this operation appears to have been poorly executed. And if HPD isn’t professional enough to at least address that perception instead of appearing to hunker down, then they deserve all the bashing they get.

Like it or not, LE in most of America has to deal with the fact that collectively, more than a few bad apples are ruining it for the rest. In situations like these, brutal, timely transparency is called for.

I think your bias is showing. You say they were "potential criminals" yet you have no problem saying the warrant service was poorly executed and why should HPD address "the perception".
Bash away.

It use to be a few bad apples and now it is more than a few bad apples. Did you address that more criminals are willing to shoot it out with police or that society as a whole has increased their hatred of LE or that it is more dangerous now to be a LEO than ever before? And some wonder why agencies can't fill their open positions. I left patrol in 99 and LE all together in 2012. When did you leave it?

Also, what is HPD not being transparent about?

 

[sharkey]

Huh, from what I read they busted the door, the dog attacked and was shot, THEN the guy come from the back of the house with a gun????

Shhh, despite doing it, you don't know what you are talking about. Others have shown HPD has screwed the pooch here. Those poor dead criminals were just minding their own business selling heroin and the bad poolice came in shot their poor dog and then murdered them.

 

[sharkey]

If the deceased couple weren't Whites over age 50, this would be national news - along with riots.

Eli

Yeah, because blacks have a history of rioting for dead criminals....

 

[toddnjoyce]

The couple got the drop on them when they made entry. It's as simple as that.

That’s one version.

Huh, from what I read they busted the door, the dog attacked and was shot, THEN the guy come from the back of the house with a gun????

That’s another one.

And then there’s Art’s position, which is essentially 2A can suck it and only the government can have guns.

“I would express my personal frustration at lawmakers that know we have a public health epidemic in this country we call gun violence,” Acevedo said. “I appreciate your prayers, but frankly, we’ve got a community to pray for us. The question is, what are policy makers willing to do besides prayers to address a public health epidemic?”

Source: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...tout-New-details-emerge-as-three-13572187.php

 

[Big Green]

• Confirm that the brown stuff is actually heroin.
• Actually watch the house for a few days (or even a few hours) to see what sort of volume they're moving.
• While watching the house, see if it's possible to discern a pattern of movement and behavior that would enable arresting the principles outside of space they nominally control.
• Make a couple of buys by LEOs so that the affidavit for the warrant doesn't live or die on the quality of the search of the CI, something that can't be confirmed at this point.

That would be a nice start. I'm sure I could think of more.

My experience with how much investigation should precede direct action is apparently not in sync with the way HPD undercover drug enforcement works. Live and learn, I suppose.

Concur. To me no knock warrants should be used only for the most egregious offenders. Never leaves house, carries a pocket of hand grenandes, has armed bodyguards, etc. For suspects that could be apprehended in other ways a more thorough watching of patterns may lead to an arrest without incident to either party.

 

[smittyb]

I think your bias is showing. You say they were "potential criminals" yet you have no problem saying the warrant service was poorly executed and why should HPD address "the perception".
Bash away.

It use to be a few bad apples and now it is more than a few bad apples. Did you address that more criminals are willing to shoot it out with police or that society as a whole has increased their hatred of LE or that it is more dangerous now to be a LEO than ever before? And some wonder why agencies can't fill their open positions. I left patrol in 99 and LE all together in 2012. When did you leave it?

Also, what is HPD not being transparent about?

Shhh, despite doing it, you don't know what you are talking about. Others have shown HPD has screwed the pooch here. Those poor dead criminals were just minding their own business selling heroin and the bad poolice came in shot their poor dog and then murdered them.

I wonder why society’s opinion of LE has gone downhill.

I sure do miss Mayberry.

 

[smittyb]

Concur. To me no knock warrants should be used only for the most egregious offenders. Never leaves house, carries a pocket of hand grenandes, has armed bodyguards, etc. For suspects that could be apprehended in other ways a more thorough watching of patterns may lead to an arrest without incident to either party.

Enough of your common sense and logic, man.
We’ve got doors to breach!

 

[andre3k]

Man I'm done with this thread.

Luckily, I have tonight off. But I have three warrants sitting in my inbox waiting to be run.

According to this thread I'm not qualified to run them and if shit goes sideways I'll conspire with my squad to cover it up.

Yall have fun debating what you read online and on social media, tomorrow I'll be doing it.



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[toddnjoyce]

I think your bias is showing.

Also, what is HPD not being transparent about?

What’s my bias? Generally speaking, I’m pro-LE.

I’m interested in what you call a person who hasn’t been convicted of a crime? Suspect? Potential criminal? Person of interest?

I’ve been clear from day 1 on this forum that my background is career military; flew for a portion, then transitioned to ground combat.

What I don’t get is the blind faith in the information selected to be publicly released constitutes all the facts.

And yeah, a four year history of executing warrants with only one officer involved shooting indicates four officers shot going thru a known choke point (door) was a tactical failure.

Want to do a no-knock? Kick the door in and throw a flash bang. Then go through the choke point.

 

[sharkey]

And then there’s Art’s position, which is essentially 2A can suck it and only the government can have guns.

Look, I doubt you will find any LEO here, working or retired, that would stand up for Art. But maybe that is another bias you have? Your dislike of the chief is clouding your judgment of a justified warrant service. Don't muddy the thread by talking about the 2A here.

 

[sharkey]

What’s my bias? Generally speaking, I’m pro-LE.

I’m interested in what you call a person who hasn’t been convicted of a crime? Suspect? Potential criminal? Person of interest?

I’ve been clear from day 1 on this forum that my background is career military; flew for a portion, then transitioned to ground combat.

What I don’t get is the blind faith in the information selected to be publicly released constitutes all the facts.

And yeah, a four year history of executing warrants with only one officer involved shooting indicates four officers shot going thru a known choke point (door) was a tactical failure.

Want to do a no-knock? Kick the door in and throw a flash bang. Then go through the choke point.

I already showed why I think you are bias in the last reply
Uh, the person who sold heroin to the CI IS a criminal. You are wanting to play a semantics game.
Yeah, I guess my question of when you left LE went over your head. I highly suspected you never were a LEO. When the Air Force runs a bombing campaign, I keep my mouth shut because I know nothing about it.
It's not blind faith. It is the experienced opinion from those who have been there done that. When I start to perceive there is a cover up, I'll let you know. I never said the stories have all the facts and you have to remember, the media is NOT on the side of LE. If they felt the LE unjustifiably served a warrant, they would report on that, trust me.
You call it a tactical failure (when you have never done it). I call it SOP. Surprise, bad chit happens when you go after criminals. Not only that but in 9 years in patrol I never did everything tactically perfectly because.........wait for it.............we are humans BUT no, you are just gonna come right out and say they f'ked up. Wow, the audacity you have.

 

[andre3k]

Want to do a no-knock? Kick the door in and throw a flash bang. Then go through the choke point.

That way is also a great way to get sued and indicted.

Every case is different.

Your run your tac plan according to your intell and every situation is doing to be different.

Throw a banger and kick in the door? C'mon man, this isn't a combat zone.

For one, you don't throw a banger anywhere. Simply roll it in 10 -12 ft into the structure so that you're not tossing it into someone's lap or some kids bed. If there's children or elderly in the structure you probably won't even use one.

Kick in the door if you want to injure yourself and go down at the front of the stack. That's what breachers and breaching tools are for. There's no reason today to kick in a door when you're running a preplanned warrant. that's stupid.







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