Laws on pepper spray

[Outrun]

There is not much to tell. I requested the tapes from all the squads on scene but it was declined. I was nice through the whole thing.

No fail to id, no attitude, nothing like that. That is why I can't believe that I got arrested. The only thing that did occur is that me and an officer had an argument. My dad retired as an officer from the adjacent city. I mentioned just in passing that he was the first motorcycle officer for Murphy. The officer turned around and said your dad was the first motor cycle officer for Murphy. I said yes. He said well I know the first motor cycle officer in Murphy and it's not your dad. That was when I knew things were not going well. But it is still true. I have the newspaper article on it.

I had no problems with Wylie stopping me at all. They had me there for an hour but it was only at about 45 min it that I said hey can we please wrap this up I need to go. They already had confirmed at that time that I had bought that jet ski by calling the previous owner and by calling the guy that I was taking it to.

I did nothing wrong but answered every question they had. The only question that I did not have the answer to was when I bought my stuff. I have a 14' landscape trailer. 6 weedeaters 4 mowers, 2 hedge trimmers. I was unable to provide all that. Also once they realized I had a dash cam the officer starting asking me if it had a mic. Well yes it did but it was not going to pick up the stuff we were talking about.

Anything you want to know just ask me and I will add it to the site as a Frequently asked question.

 

[txinvestigator]

There is not much to tell. I requested the tapes from all the squads on scene but it was declined. I was nice through the whole thing.

No fail to id, no attitude, nothing like that. That is why I can't believe that I got arrested. The only thing that did occur is that me and an officer had an argument. My dad retired as an officer from the adjacent city. I mentioned just in passing that he was the first motorcycle officer for Murphy. The officer turned around and said your dad was the first motor cycle officer for Murphy. I said yes. He said well I know the first motor cycle officer in Murphy and it's not your dad. That was when I knew things were not going well. But it is still true. I have the newspaper article on it.

I had no problems with Wylie stopping me at all. They had me there for an hour but it was only at about 45 min it that I said hey can we please wrap this up I need to go. They already had confirmed at that time that I had bought that jet ski by calling the previous owner and by calling the guy that I was taking it to.

I did nothing wrong but answered every question they had. The only question that I did not have the answer to was when I bought my stuff. I have a 14' landscape trailer. 6 weedeaters 4 mowers, 2 hedge trimmers. I was unable to provide all that. Also once they realized I had a dash cam the officer starting asking me if it had a mic. Well yes it did but it was not going to pick up the stuff we were talking about.

Anything you want to know just ask me and I will add it to the site as a Frequently asked question.

You talk a lot but say nothing. What type of OC did you have? What caused the officer to search you? What was your exact charge? Have you spoken to a prosecutor?

There is more to this than you are telling. He didn't just decide he didn't like your haircut and then look for something to arrest you for.

 

[Outrun]

What type of OC did I have: I only found out today what I had. I didn't even know. I tracked the company down.

It was a 4oz of Punch II mk3.
The officer patted me down about 5 min into the stop.
The O.C. was not on me. When he asked for paper work on my jet ski
I pulled out my laptop bag that has all my paper work. The pepper spray was in there. After about 10 min of the bag being on the top of the truck he asked do you have any weapons. I said no. Then 5 seconds later I said oh yeah I have pepper spray in that bag. I had forgotten about it. He said do you mind if I look in here. I said no I don't mind. He pulled it out and right away he looked real excited held it up high and walked to the back of the trailer. It was then I was like hmmm.

My charge was UCW. I didn't even realize the arrest report was not posted on the site. I think their is a link to it on the forum. It is on so many sites.

I posted it on the site now. http://www.theothersideofthebadge.com/wpimages/wp0929966b.png

I have spoken to a former DA, a Former Chief Felony Prosecutor and several attorneys. All of them say something different but all believe it was a bad arrest and should be thrown out. Some of the comments I can't even post lets just put it that way. 3 Attorneys said they would not even take the case.

Jason

 

[Gpz1100]

Never Talk to the Police...

[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8167533318153586646]Talking to the Police by Professor James Duane[/URL]#

 

[Outrun]

Yeah I pretty much know the whole don't talk to the police thing. BUT my dad was a cop and I have been around cops my whole life. I talk and answer questions if asked. If I am doing nothing wrong what is it gonna hurt. But after 40 min of it I started to see it was going south. They were looking to get me on something. Why I didn't know but they were sure content that my stuff was stolen which it was not.

If I had the dash cam video it would be a great story. They didn't even like it that I had a laptop in the truck! I use it for my business and everything. I told them but they didn't like it.

 

[Texas42]

[url]http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A370265[/URL]

Ok, I read a bunch of this. Not all of it.

It seems pretty clear to me that this particular officer could have handled the situation better. . . . .anyway

I'm not an LEO, but from the training deal that they talked about, it sounds like it would be ok, even appropriate, to shoot someone who was threatening an officer with pepper spray. This just doesn't sound right to me.

I know every shooting or possible shooting incident is different, but I think 95% of the time an idiot points a pepper spray at a cop, it shouldn't result in a shooting. Seems to me they shouldn't train that way. Is this a real example of training or a defense attourney's rememberence?

 

[KellyAsh]

I think this particular case makes the Wylie PD look bad regardless of whether you argued or were a perceived smart ass, which you might have been...anything short of aggressive or violent. If Jason was either of these, aggressive or violent, he would have had additional charges put on him. It makes me think that this young cop was out there on the streets with the intention of finding reasons to put people in jail as a means of entertainment and reputation building and not simply do his job. The supervisor there was probably offended by your claim about your father and decided, what the hell, screw this guy, I'll let it happen for my officer's sake. Both of these officers know the charge isn't going to stick but that's irrelevant to them. Its just a shame that the supervisor allowed this to happen.

Cases like this encourage people to not use less than lethal options to defend themselves with, like pepper spray, and resort only to lethal force. If I am afraid of being arrested for carrying a less than lethal weapon like pepper spray but I have a CHL and a firearm, the odds of someone getting killed go way up should an incident occur. Thats never a good situation to encourage as Wylie PD is doing here.

Personally, Ive had one encounter with Wylie PD and they were very nice to me during the entire ordeal but I have also not been so lucky with other PDs. I am ALWAYS nice and compliant with police at all times, even when they're not so I know first hand there are alot cops out there that love to overstep the boundaries and don't doubt that the City of Wylie had 2 officers do just that in this case.

 

[Outrun]

Kelly,

You pretty much took the words out of my mouth. That was one of the turning points in the stop. When he said that my dad was not the first motorcycle officer in Murphy I said right away, oh or something to that effect. I then said well he I thought that is what he said. I thought I had been wrong at that point and thought oh my dad is going to kill me for dropping his name. But soon found out it was correct and he had the news paper article.

 

[Big country]

 

[Wolfwood]

 

[DirtyD]

Just wanted some popcorn....

 

[Big country]

MMMMMMMMM popcorn, I like popcorn.

 

[bikerbill]

Hey, Oldguy, I got my wife one of those Kimber two-shot pepper spray gadgets at Cabela's, since so far I've been unable to convince her she needs a CHL ... I asked the Cabela's folks about laws regarding the device, and they said it was completely legal to carry it in Texas and no licensing is involved ... sold over the counter in almost any gun store you can find ...

 

[Burt Gummer]

I admit I failed to read EVERY post but you are good to go to carry Pepper Spray. Pepper spray is not listed as a chemical dispensing device since OC is not a chemical. It is listed as a food product of all things.
Small tear gas devices are illegal etc but I think OC is so damn hot there is not reason to carry something different.

 

[txinvestigator]

I admit I failed to read EVERY post but you are good to go to carry Pepper Spray. Pepper spray is not listed as a chemical dispensing device since OC is not a chemical.

I will make the "chemical" argument later. In fact, a chemical dispensing device has to capable of dispensing a SUBSTANCE, and OC certainly is a SUBSTANCE.

Texas Penal Code

Sec. 46.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:

(14) "Chemical dispensing device" means a device, other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for personal protection, that is designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse psychological or physiological effect on a human being.

Since it IS a substance, then OC can certainly fall under this statute. It is not a prohibited weapon under Penal Code 46.05 IF it is a "small chemical dispenser sold commercially for personal protection."

It is listed as a food product of all things..

Listed where? Not in the penal code.

In fact, the penal code does not define "chemical". However, OC is an lachrymatory agent, a chemical compound that irritates the eyes to cause tears, pain, and even temporary blindness. Capsaicin is the active ingredient and IS a chemical. It is usually extracted in ethanol, then the ethanol is evaporated. An emulsifier is used to suspend the capsaicin in water. They don't just squeeze pepper juice into a container.

Capsaicin has a chemical name; 6-Nonenamide, N-((4-Hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl methyl)-8-methyl-,(E)-

Here is it's MSDS

[url]http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Capsaicin_Natural-9923296[/URL]

Small tear gas devices are illegal etc

No, they are not.

 

[Texas1911]

In fact, the penal code does not define "chemical". However, OC is an lachrymatory agent, a chemical compound that irritates the eyes to cause tears, pain, and even temporary blindness. Capsaicin is the active ingredient and IS a chemical.

Everything is a chemical, water is a chemical, you could argue that a saline dispensing aerosol device is a "chemical dispensing device".

Honestly, the interpretation of the law is lost here. It's not simply absolute verbatim. It's left open to allow LE to exercise common sense. There is no way to list every dangerous chemical on the market, or all of it's reactive properties, for the future and the present.

Yet another example of common sense being lost.

 

[txinvestigator]

Everything is a chemical, water is a chemical, you could argue that a saline dispensing aerosol device is a "chemical dispensing device".

Honestly, the interpretation of the law is lost here. It's not simply absolute verbatim. It's left open to allow LE to exercise common sense. There is no way to list every dangerous chemical on the market, or all of it's reactive properties, for the future and the present.

Yet another example of common sense being lost.

Yep. The point is it matters not if you want to call it a chemical or not. The definition uses the term, "substance".

The legislature left us open by using the phrase, small, commercially available device". Define "small"..

However, OC, CS or CN....all legal to carry if they are "small".

I carry OC, the keydefender. I need to get one of those Kimber models.

 

[Burt Gummer]

Yep. The point is it matters not if you want to call it a chemical or not. The definition uses the term, "substance".

The legislature left us open by using the phrase, small, commercially available device". Define "small"..

However, OC, CS or CN....all legal to carry if they are "small".

I carry OC, the keydefender. I need to get one of those Kimber models.

Well how about this then. Small tear gas/CS dispensers in MY county are considered illegal where as OC spray is not. You went a little dictionary crazy, paralysis by analysis.
Each county DA will interpret the laws like this that are gray in their own way.
Tell me my brother, does YOUR county consider OC illegal? Does it consider tear gas dispensers illegal?

 

[lonestar]

Why should the LEO not defend herself? I'm a former PD officer and a current Military Policeman. I've seen LEO's die from much less lethal means than pepper spray. You always got to assume the worse before more than often it is. Now, if the situation was different, had the suspect not been in a physical fight he wouldn't be dead today. When you get physical with an LEO you put your own life on the block. I won't comment on the whole "i got arrested for OC" because to every story there is always two sides.

 

[txinvestigator]

Well how about this then. Small tear gas/CS dispensers in MY county are considered illegal where as OC spray is not.

No they are not. The law is in the penal code, and if you actually READ the law it is clear. The LAW makes no distinction between OC , CS, or CN.

You went a little dictionary crazy, paralysis by analysis.

That was not a dictionary, it was the Penal Code. That is the little book where the laws are that the police and district attorney's must obey.

Each county DA will interpret the laws like this that are gray in their own way.

Other than the term "small" what, exactly, is gray about the definition of a Chemical Dispensing device?

Tell me my brother, does YOUR county consider OC illegal? Does it consider tear gas dispensers illegal?

"My county" must follow the penal code, as do all 254 counties in Texas. There is no distinction between OC, CS, or CN.