Man arrested while carrying rifle during hike

[Burt Gummer]

You know, after reading this whole thread, and it's untimely derailment towards the end....


Burt no offense meant man, but you certainly have a knack for coming across brash, and rubbing people the wrong way. I envision you to be the LEO in the video.

Explaining the law and how/why it is enforced to the uninformed is not easy to do. Maybe next time I will not provide my experience with arrests and court. But yes I definitely rub many people the wrong way, especially those who have an inflexible opinion.
You can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

[winchster]

Can't explain why you lose respect for a badge. I venture to say you started with no respect. Your posts clearly state that.

No, I was quite specific. I said yours. I have a lot of respect of LEO's that deserve it. It is my humble opinion that you do not. My opinion is based entirely on your attitude, choice of language, and choice of argument posted in this forum.

 

[UncleSamsMisguidedChild]

The vast majority of your posts are quite literally dripping with sarcasm, and condescending tones. Not really the best way to explain anything.

I don't want you to think I'm jumping on some bandwagon attacking you, because that is not the case, I'm simply trying to point out my thoughts on why it's going the way it is.

 

[Burt Gummer]

He's talking about YOUR badge, not THE badge.

It is easy to criticize something you have no experience with and fear. I see it every day and LEO's get used to it. And my intention here is not to give people a warm and fuzzy, I explain law and tactics and I get attacked.
As you can see, insults towards me and the lack of responses to my questions about the legal aspects of the situation are the norm. No biggie.

 

[Younggun]

What gang members staring through a window? And what conclusion?

Let me refresh your memory.

Your implied gang member

I think everybody should carry rifles in the streets. The old ladies, and the guys with hats turned sideways wearing blue or red bandanas. Just don't ever call the cops.

Wife on the phone-"Hey honey, theres a guy in the street staring at me through the front window of our house, he is carrying a rifle. Should I be worried?"
You- "No sweetie, he's just excercising his R2KBA, make sure you don't call the police or anything."

And you somehow reached the conclusion that this is how we felt based on the fact we believe law abiding citizens should not be harassed for walking with a rifle. As shown by this statement.

Just going with the consus about carrying a rifle in public. If a soldier or hunter can do it, why not a gang member or old lady with dimentia?
Wouldn't want to discriminate because of profiling. After all, the gang member/s are not committing any crimes.

Just some devil's advocate thinking.

Damn that quote feature!!!!

I missed the memo stating where this threat is focused on attacking me explaining equal enforcement of the law.

Continue though, hopefully you can provide legal input instead of constantly attacking me.

You are not getting attacked. Your arguments are encountering resistance because you have made crap arguments by twisting what we have said.

 

[Burt Gummer]

No, I was quite specific. I said yours. I have a lot of respect of LEO's that deserve it. It is my humble opinion that you do not. My opinion is based entirely on your attitude, choice of language, and choice of argument posted in this forum.

My facts are sound. Unfortunately my choice of language is very direct. Does not change the legal facts but I see what you mean.

 

[UncleSamsMisguidedChild]

Yeah, I'm done with this thread...


The passive aggressiveness just killed it for me

 

[Burt Gummer]

Let me refresh your memory.

Your implied gang member



And you somehow reached the conclusion that this is how we felt based on the fact we believe law abiding citizens should not be harassed for walking with a rifle. As shown by this statement.




Damn that quote feature!!!!




You are not getting attacked. Your arguments are encountering resistance because you have made crap arguments by twisting what we have said.

Ah you are absolutely right. I am encountering resistance by answering questions about police tactics and enforcement of the law.
Since you believe your stance is correct while mine based upon my police experience is not, I will agree that your opinions are right and my experience is incorrect. You can carry on with your life while I continue to enforce the law, save lives, and put felons in jail.

 

[Burt Gummer]

Yeah, I'm done with this thread...


The passive aggressiveness just killed it for me

The facts and law got convoluted by fear and lack of understanding of the law.

 

[winchster]

My facts are sound. Unfortunately my choice of language is very direct. Does not change the legal facts but I see what you mean.

The legal facts are, it's not against the law to carry.

The language I'm referring to is not directness, it's passive aggressive. It's the belief that you have the authority to make someone bow down and lick your boots because you're a vet and a cop. It's more the mentality that you represent more than the language. Your posts seem to embody the perfect image of "bad cop". Your holier than thou condescending attitude towards people you don't even know says a lot about your character. I will make sure to avoid your county on the off chance you've tracked my name down and put me on your list.

 

[Flat Lander]

This is a hilarious read! So for this LEO, if they got a call about a black man walking down the street of an all white neighborhood, then they have every right to detain, cuff and question him about what he is doing just because they can. Neither one was breaking any laws, but alarmed stupid people.

Just sayin

 

[Burt Gummer]

The legal facts are, it's not against the law to carry.

The language I'm referring to is not directness, it's passive aggressive. It's the belief that you have the authority to make someone bow down and lick your boots because you're a vet and a cop. It's more the mentality that you represent more than the language. Your posts seem to embody the perfect image of "bad cop". Your holier than thou condescending attitude towards people you don't even know says a lot about your character. I will make sure to avoid your county on the off chance you've tracked my name down and put me on your list.

I never claimed to make people bow down and lick boots.
My confidence in my legal knowledge is evident.

You do not know my character. If I were to infer from your posts I could conclude you lack understanding of law enforcement authority, fear it, and lash out at me, a representative of LE. Furthermore, it would lead me to believe you lack character and have an inferiority complex.

But that's not true, neither is your interpretation of me as a "bad cop" and that I have a "list" and track people down on the internet who call me names.

You can feel free to avoid my county if you like, it's still a free country and I work hard to keep it that way.

 

[Younggun]

Ah you are absolutely right. I am encountering resistance by answering questions about police tactics and enforcement of the law.
Since you believe your stance is correct while mine based upon my police experience is not, I will agree that your opinions are right and my experience is incorrect. You can carry on with your life while I continue to enforce the law, save lives, and put felons in jail.

We know what the law is, or on this case, isn't.

There is now law against open carrying a long gun.

The disagreement is whether or not condescending attitudes like yours are part of the problem. You seem to think it is not.

You are also the kind of cop people hate to meet because they have a choice to be talked down to or be treated like the guy in the video cause they won't kiss your ass for [sarcasm] being a hero to come and protect them[/sarcasm]

Respect is a two way street and when you show none for me as a citizen I will be extremely reluctant to show any in return, as will many others you encounter.

Police are not above any other citizens and good cops get tons of respect from their communities for good reason. Bad ones have no respect in their community and in many cases, their own departments.

No I'm not a cop, but I was sour rounded by them growing up and still good friends with many. I've seen both sides of the fence. You can discount what I've learned about LE work over my lifetime if you wish but I actually have a pretty good understanding of what goes on from both points of view.

Not all cops are respected, those that aren't almost always have a condescending attitude similar to yours and love the power they have over people while on the job. Usually that attitude winds up causing them problems at some point in their career.

 

[Burt Gummer]

We know what the law is, or on this case, isn't.

There is now law against open carrying a long gun.

The disagreement is whether or not condescending attitudes like yours are part of the problem. You seem to think it is not.

You are also the kind of cop people hate to meet because they have a choice to be talked down to or be treated like the guy in the video cause they won't kiss your ass for [sarcasm] being a hero to come and protect them[/sarcasm]

Respect is a two way street and when you show none for me as a citizen I will be extremely reluctant to show any in return, as will many others you encounter.

Police are not above any other citizens and good cops get tons of respect from their communities for good reason. Bad ones have no respect in their community and in many cases, their own departments.

No I'm not a cop, but I was sour rounded by them growing up and still good friends with many. I've seen both sides of the fence. You can discount what I've learned about LE work over my lifetime if you wish but I actually have a pretty good understanding of what goes on from both points of view.

Not all cops are respected, those that aren't almost always have a condescending attitude similar to yours and love the power they have over people while on the job. Usually that attitude winds up causing them problems at some point in their career.

Good post. I appreciated your respect in addressing my law enforcement tactics and knowledge of the law. And thank you for not insulting me, calling me names, or saying I am a bad/terrible cop. That shows great respect.

The people I deal with seem to be pretty happy with my service. I have NEVER received rudeness complaints, been to internal affairs, or suspended for anything. Don't let an internet disagreement jade you on police.

 

[pistolpadre]

I tried to inject a bit of humor, and civility earlier.. Now that everyone else has vented, let me climb off the bench, dust off the clown stuff, and state what i believe to be an honest critique of what happened here..By nature ANY gun site will be an LEO friendly group.. The introduction of ego was a factor in this debate, that got more heated than necessary.. and that's exactly the issue seen in the video..

I also carried a badge .. pics will be in the bottom.. Before "only Corrections".. Let me assure you that we went through the full peace officer AZ LEO cert.. this occurred half way through my two decades with the agency and in conjunction with our change over to Glock's.. both were seen as a move to stop the drain of young staff that were using Corrections as a stepping stone to street LEO..

My revue of Staff that we lost to other Agencies was almost always the same.. EXCEPTIONAL Staff.. and at the same time, Staff that caused the most issues with Inmates.. Guys i'm not talking 60%-70%... I'm talking 95+% of Staff that had that same need to "over" enforce the rules.. Prisons run on a thin line of respect, and as you can imagine exceptional staff with a need to be "RIGHT" all the time can be a liability.. Obviously i'm not suggesting i EVER let my troops look the other way.. But the pro can put the safety of the yard over his own ego.. I was guilty of this same thing when i first started.. but after a couple riots (sorry we call them "disturbances" ha ha) you learn fast..

Oh, and as an addendum to Burts "no IA or Suspensions.. I'm afraid i had three use of force investigations.. and the dept reached in my pocket on one of them.. I'm proud of those plaques.. and my service..

In closing i'd bet every one of us would buy the first round for Burt or any other LEO..

 

[Burt Gummer]

I tried to inject a bit of humor, and civility earlier.. Now that everyone else has vented, let me climb off the bench, dust off the clown stuff, and state what i believe to be an honest critique of what happened here..By nature ANY gun site will be an LEO friendly group.. The introduction of ego was a factor in this debate, that got more heated than necessary.. and that's exactly the issue seen in the video..

I also carried a badge .. pics will be in the bottom.. Before "only Corrections".. Let me assure you that we went through the full peace officer AZ LEO cert.. this occurred half way through my two decades with the agency and in conjunction with our change over to Glock's.. both were seen as a move to stop the drain of young staff that were using Corrections as a stepping stone to street LEO..

My revue of Staff that we lost to other Agencies was almost always the same.. EXCEPTIONAL Staff.. and at the same time, Staff that caused the most issues with Inmates.. Guys i'm not talking 60%-70%... I'm talking 95+% of Staff that had that same need to "over" enforce the rules.. Prisons run on a thin line of respect, and as you can imagine exceptional staff with a need to be "RIGHT" all the time can be a liability.. Obviously i'm not suggesting i EVER let my troops look the other way.. But the pro can put the safety of the yard over his own ego.. I was guilty of this same thing when i first started.. but after a couple riots (sorry we call them "disturbances" ha ha) you learn fast..

Oh, and as an addendum to Burts "no IA or Suspensions.. I'm afraid i had three use of force investigations.. and the dept reached in my pocket on one of them.. I'm proud of those plaques.. and my service..

In closing i'd bet every one of us would buy the first round for Burt or any other LEO..

You are an outstanding jester, or peacemaker. Thanks and yes, ego does play into the careers of so many of us.
So this is the internet where you never know who or what is pecking away at the keyboard so you take everything with a grain of salt.

Speaking of "only corrections" I have immense respect for those men and women in corrections. It s one career in law enforcement which I NEVER want to experience. Give me crackheads, robbers, and the mentally ill in my duties any day.

 

[majormadmax]

This is a hilarious read! So for this LEO, if they got a call about a black man walking down the street of an all white neighborhood, then they have every right to detain, cuff and question him about what he is doing just because they can. Neither one was breaking any laws, but alarmed stupid people.

Just sayin

Just saying, if the police respond to a 911 call, they have the right to engage the individual that matches the description in the call. If that person is law-abiding, they will answer the police's questions and be on their way. They act like total tools, and break some laws in the process, then they do risk being arrested.

The stupid ones are those that believe because someone isn't breaking one law that they can't be breaking others. Again, and pay attention now, this MSG Grisham wasn't arrested for openly carrying a rifle, he was arrested for interference with public duties (Texas Penal Code § 38.15).

And Texas law also states that it is legal for a peace officer to disarm someone if they reasonably believe a safety risk exists. An armed individual being hostile towards police most definitely poses a threat to their safety and his own.

So once a logical person looks at the facts of this incident, Grisham doesn't appear to be the martyr everyone is making him out to be. In reality, he is a well-known instigator who was fishing for a confrontation when the police approached him. Had he done the smart thing, and cooperated with the police, he would have been on his way in a matter of minutes.

No, instead he decided he was going to be an asshole, and look where it got him. It also makes the rest of of the firearms community look like idiots. Thanks Grisham!

But as the old sayings go, play stupid games, win stupid prizes; stupid hurts; life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid; etc. etc.

 

[M. Sage]

Just going with the consus about carrying a rifle in public. If a soldier or hunter can do it, why not a gang member or old lady with dimentia?
Wouldn't want to discriminate because of profiling. After all, the gang member/s are not committing any crimes.

Just some devil's advocate thinking.

Not Devil's Advocate. Reductio ad absurdum. Devil's Advocate is taking a position you disagree with for the sake of debate.

 

[Burt Gummer]

Not Devil's Advocate. Reductio ad absurdum. Devil's Advocate is taking a position you disagree with for the sake of debate.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[M. Sage]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Don't know if you should thank me. Google reductio ad absurdum. It's not a very complimentary term to have tacked on to your debate style.