Oh... CRAP!! Sold Pistol Used In a Crime

[Eli]

The police stopped by here about ten minutes ago asking about a Ruger SR9c I pawned a year or two ago. All they would tell me is it was found at a crime scene. TG I remembered where I sold it and the business will have records!! It pisses me off that some A-hole douche bag could have caused me some serious problems!!

'Crime scene' can involve being recovered on a theft bust - which happens more often than you think.

Thats my fear actually. I have two shelves of broken or otherwise no longer desired pistols that I won't sell or give away. Legal issues but also the thought they could be used in a crime would make me feel responsible.

You're over-thinking it. If you sell your car that's later involved in a DWI fatality, are you responsible?

Been there done that. Got a call from Police wanting to return a gun I had traded at a gun show 10 years before. All they said was the legal proceedings were all over and did I want to come pick it up. I have this honest streak that made me tell them it wasn't mine. They withdrew the offer. Everybody was nice.
Got a visit from a Sheriff's deputy from nowhere near me. Wanted to arrest me for robbing a convenience store. They got me from the plates on my truck where it crashed in a ditch. I had traded it in a year before. Seems the dealership failed to change the title when they sold it. I had a paper trail on the truck that saved me a night in jail. My uncle sold a car and was arrested the next morning for robbing a bank. He did a morning in jail before they worked it out.

Not all dealers are honest!

Guys, we NEED to continue private-party 'off-the-books' sales! If we stop out of fear - out of being terrorized by the left - then what good is even having a gun?

Eli

 

[Mike1234567]

If I buy off the books then I'll sell off the books. If I buy where I have to go through a NICS check then I'll be getting a signed receipt.

 

[txinvestigator]

Unless you are already a suspect, you don't need to prove to whom you sold the gun. In fact, having a receipt can bite you on the ass.

 

[Maverick44]

In fact, having a receipt can bite you on the ass.

How so?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[txinvestigator]

How so?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

You sold gun and checked ID, got receipt. Cops come around. Gun you bought from FFL was used in a crime and recovered. You, thinking how smart you were, get the receipt. Cops check receipt and run record search on your buyer. Buyer was a felon. ATF knocks on your door and sends you to federal court for selling to a felon.



If your mother in law gets dead by a gun you used to own, then you might be a suspect. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[Maverick44]

You sold gun and checked ID, got receipt. Cops come around. Gun you bought from FFL was used in a crime and recovered. You, thinking how smart you were, get the receipt. Cops check receipt and run record search on your buyer. Buyer was a felon. ATF knocks on your door and sends you to federal court for selling to a felon.



If your mother in law gets dead by a gun you used to own, then you might be a suspect. Otherwise, not so much.

Send you to court for what? You have no way to personally verify if someone is a felon, therefore they would have to prove that you knew that he/she was a felon beforehand. If you sold it to some random guy, they are not going to have that evidence.

Who's to say they don't charge you anyway? They come to you about the gun, you tell them you sold it, and they leave. They eventually find the guy, and they question him about where he got the gun. He tells them he got it from you. He was a felon at the time, so your in the same mess as if you had a receipt. The only difference is that instead of sending the officers straight to the guy, you didn't help them this time, and have made the sale of the gun look more suspicious.

Basically, your suggesting we not keep a record of our sales with the sole purpose of impeding an investigation out of fear of prosecution. If you don't want to keep a record, that's fine. There is no law in Texas that says you have to. To do it for the reason you suggest? That is wrong in my opinion.

Then again, I may be stretching things like you were.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[txinvestigator]

Send you to court for what? You have no way to personally verify if someone is a felon, therefore they would have to prove that you knew that he/she was a felon beforehand. If you sold it to some random guy, they are not going to have that evidence.

So you think they can charge with with a crime that the gun was used in without evidence that you were involved, but they cannot charge you for selling to an unauthorized person?

Who's to say they don't charge you anyway? They come to you about the gun, you tell them you sold it, and they leave. They eventually find the guy, and they question him about where he got the gun. He tells them he got it from you. He was a felon at the time, so your in the same mess as if you had a receipt. The only difference is that instead of sending the officers straight to the guy, you didn't help them this time, and have made the sale of the gun look more suspicious.

How is felon going to know you if you didn't provide him with a bill of sale? Your own "what if" proves my point.

Basically, your suggesting we not keep a record of our sales with the sole purpose of impeding an investigation out of fear of prosecution. If you don't want to keep a record, that's fine. There is no law in Texas that says you have to. To do it for the reason you suggest? That is wrong in my opinion.

Then again, I may be stretching things like you were.



Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Impeding an investigation? lol. I am saying don't create defacto registration that can bite you in the ass.

 

[SidewaysTA]

SMH, you guys are something else with this BoS BS.

Hey if you can get UBC's passed then all your worries are over...

 

[Maverick44]

So you think they can charge with with a crime that the gun was used in without evidence that you were involved, but they cannot charge you for selling to an unauthorized person?

No. I think having a bill of sale will help negate the possibility of you being a suspect, and therefore not having to deal with all the BS that goes with that title. Can they charge you for selling to a felon? That depends, can they prove you knowingly sold a gun to a felon? That is how the law is stated. It doesn't say that you cannot sell a gun to a felon, only that you cannot KNOWINGLY sell a gun to a felon. That little fact throws your argument out.

How is felon going to know you if you didn't provide him with a bill of sale? Your own "what if" proves my point.

That's a very narrow way to look at it. You seem to think that the only way they can prove that you sold that gun to a felon is if he has a bill of sale. If that was how investigations worked, then no crimes would be getting solved. There is a multitude of ways they can find out who he bought it from.

Impeding an investigation? lol. I am saying don't create defacto registration that can bite you in the ass.

So purposely not keeping a record of a gun sale for the sole purpose of stopping the police from being able to find the guy you sold the gun to is not impeding an investigation? Registration would imply that the government has access to records that says who owns what. They only have access to your PRIVATE records if you give it to them. It is not even required that you keep a record, so calling it a defacto registration is a far stretch from reality.

SMH, you guys are something else with this BoS BS.

Hey if you can get UBC's passed then all your worries are over...

In what way does keeping a private record of your own personal sales equal a universal background check? Its solely your decision whether you do it or not, and I have yet to see a single person on this forum ever suggest that keeping a record should be required by law. Once again, comparing a private record that is in no way legally required to a UBC is a far stretch from reality.

 

[rushthezeppelin]

So purposely not keeping a record of a gun sale for the sole purpose of stopping the police from being able to find the guy you sold the gun to is not impeding an investigation?

How in the hell do you propose they charge you with impeding in investigation by not having a bill of sale before an investigation even begins?

 

[Maverick44]

How in the hell do you propose they charge you with impeding in investigation by not having a bill of sale before an investigation even begins?

The same way they charge you with selling a firearm to a felon just because you have a bill of sale.

I said I was stretching it a bit to make a point. Though technically, if they are already at your door asking you who you sold the gun to, the investigation has already begun.

 

[Charlie]

From reading this thread, we're basically all guilty (until proven otherwise) if we sell a gun to someone we don't know and they show us a TDL indicating they are a Texas resident. A bill of sale doesn't do shit (they can be made by anyone at anytime) and we don't have to prove anything. "They" have to prove guilt. If I'm selling a gun at a gun show and someone walking around shows me a Texas DL with their picture on it, I've done all I need to do. They give me the money, I give them the gun. I've broken no law.

 

[winchster]

Exactly

Bill of sale is stupid and hurts.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

 

[zincwarrior]

You're over-thinking it. If you sell your car that's later involved in a DWI fatality, are you responsible?

We generally drive our vehicles into the ground. Or if you're my wife, into the garage, into the wall, through a fence...

 

[txinvestigator]

We generally drive our vehicles into the ground. Or if you're my wife, into the garage, into the wall, through a fence...

Bwahaahaahaahaaa

 

[Whistler]

Bill of sale proves nothing and realistically only lets you remember the name of the guy you sold it to and is no different than simply saying "I sold it to a guy". Never heard of faking an alibi by falsifying records and creating evidence? I'd be more suspicious of a guy with a BOS "so you didn't need this, have no legal requirement for it but decided to create and retain it "just in case eh?"" It does however set nice precedent and rational for yet further privacy violation and for the growing herd of sheep, a way to demonstrate an appropriately toady sense of cooperation with "authorities". Or put Texas-style "it ain't about interfering with any investigation, it's about noneya".

 

[Savage20]

If I'm understanding correctly, the police traced the firearm to you. You led them to the pawnshop where you sold it and they'll go from there. Sounds like it's a good thing you went to a pawnshop in this instance because they'll have proof you sold the firearm. Lets you off the hook.

Not really. The burden of proof is on them, not Mike. If he says he sold it, he sold it. If they think he didn't, they need to prove it.

 

[Charlie]

Not really. The burden of proof is on them, not Mike. If he says he sold it, he sold it. If they think he didn't, they need to prove it.

Exactly!

 

[Mike1234567]

All I can say is I'm glad I pawned that gun. I've sold to individuals after which I developed doubts. People wear many masks depending on who they want to see what features. In other words, people lie and deceive and many are far too good at it for most folks to see through their fake facade.

 

[Charlie]

All I can say is I'm glad I pawned that gun. I've sold to individuals after which I developed doubts. People wear many masks depending on who they want to see what features. In other words, people lie and deceive and many are far too good at it for most folks to see through their fake facade.

I'm just too insensitive, I guess! The only doubts I've had about selling a gun to an individual is I probably sold it too cheap and should have kept it! I'm not responsible for others lies and deceitfulness and fake facades and don't wring my hands later 'cause they did something or may do something I don't approve of. It may sound harsh of me but I quit worrying about things I had no control over many years ago. And it's not good for one's health!