Sapience. Any animals you think could be evolving to basic human like sapience?

[leVieux]

My computer is down right now so I can’t get on my flight sim in VR, plus I went from years of drinking probably a half gallon of Dr Pepper everyday to only water about a week ago.

So I guess I need the distraction, lol.


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Your pancreas thanks you !

 

[justmax]

View attachment 305645

He always reminds me of the old joke about the hair lip buying a horse.

 

[Younggun]

Well, I feel the pots been mixed. But no shit was stirred in. How boring! Anyways, my stupid and worthless opinions based on watching discovery and TLC (back when they were good), and watching documentaries and various other infotainment type vids on YT.

To quote Monty Python, "And now for something totally different"...I will state some rather well documented facts regarding changes in modern humans and then I will pose a couple of questions.

Fact #1 - Cumulative knowledge grows exponentially faster than an individual human can comprehend or digest it all. As recent as 2-300 years ago, a good Doctor could know most all there was to know about practicing medicine. Now we have specific specializations.

Fact #2 - Physical changes/evolution of some humans have occured, for some known and some unknown reasons, in relatively short spans of time. In the same 2-300 years many modern humans have come to grow taller, reach puberty sooner, etc. Go past looking at changes over centuries and study some millennial changes and the same applies. Archeology has all but proven that in some modern humans, our little toes are getting smaller or maybe evolving away entirely. The study I read specifically referenced the cultural effect on genetics. In cultures where shoes were worn, the little toe was not needed for balance. This change crossed over sub-species (racial) and geographic lines.

For Fact 2 Part 1: I don’t know how much the height change is due to genetic change vs diet. So I don’t know that it can be directly called evolution. I mean, people in North Korea are pretty short.

Fact 2 Part 2: Yeah, the little toe stuff is pretty interesting. There is also evidence that our pinky fingers will eventually go away. The nerves that operate the pinky and ring fingers appear to be merging as generations pass (try bending just your pinky) and it may be a sign that the pinky may simply not be useful anymore. I’d have to go digging around to find the details on this. My brain just kept the part it thought was cool.

Fact #3 - Over a short period of time, a high protein diet increases our intelligence (mind), and over a long period of time, it increases our cranial capacity (brain).

Opinion #1 - As equally important as intelligence, is the ability to utilize that knowledge gtat one has. A dolphin, elephant, pig, whatever, cannot build a space station without and opposable thumb to hold the tools, let alone inventing the tools to begin with.

I believe the ability to manipulate tools plays a big part in the ability to become sapient. Because I believe sapience is tied very strongly to imagination. Imagination is driven by its usefulness, otherwise it’s wasted brain power. So being able to imagine a round rock as a sharp pointy thing, and imagine tying that shape pointy thing to a stick which can be thrown, then imagining another lump of wood as a lever to increase the force of that thrown stick and pointy thing means increased survival ability. But what might a dolphin imagine? Something maybe, but anything beyond instinctual fear, idk. Without the ability to create I don’t believe the imagination would be useful>so save that brain power for something else, or simply do not expand the brain to possess the ability. Because it has no use and drains resources from the body leading to slightly lower survival chances. And without that ability the dolphin can’t truly imagine itself, it’s future, etc. the things that make us sapient or “human”

It’s complicated because where exactly can you draw the line between sentience and sapience. I mean, we can talk about the difference, but the actual line is blurry.

And now for the questions that will probably start some shit or get the thread back on track to what the OP started.

Question #1 - What if a canine's dew claws evolved into an opposing thumb. Why do we often remove them. The same applies to the racoon, which I believe is in the family or even genus. Their problem solving ability seems to outshine dogs. Ask anybody that keeps chickens.

IIRC, dew claws are part of an evolutionary culling, or whatever term fits. They are useless and so they have been disappearing. I’m not sure if wolves even have them, might just be a recessive trait unintentionally brought out by our intervention and control of breeding. For raccoons I belief the 5th “finger” is still useful and has the ability to grab/grasp. But I really haven’t laid much attention.

Question #2 - If modern humans possess sapience, are we not obligated to nurture, pass on, and propagate that trait?

I don’t believe so, at least not in creatures that don’t already possess it. I’m not sure we really have that ability even. If a creature does possess sapience, I believe there will be a fairly strong emotional urge to treat it with kindness based on our natural empathy. Maybe answered that correctly, idk.

Question #3 - Assuming the answer to question #2 is a "yes", are we as humans better off to train and/or genetically modify other primates to mine our resources or should we continue on the path of Artificial Intelligence in robotic machinery to do the tasks we humans don't want to do.

I know I didn’t say yes to the previous, but I’ll give my opinion here anyways. Using a Sapient being for such tasks would be equal to slavery. Even if an artificial intelligence were to reach the level of being considered Sapient I don’t believe we could any longer claim it as property, though I don’t think that will happen anytime soon. But that’s it’s own major debate.

Inquiring minds want to know. And yes, I had nothing better to do tonight than to stir this pot.

I have nothing better to do than spit up the post and answer mostly hypothetical questions. Bonus points for doing it on an iPhone.


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[msharley]

How about? HAMMERS??

 

[justmax]

How about? HAMMERS??

View attachment 305651

I don't get it.

 

[benenglish]

I'm thinking @benenglish won the gross-out award for this thread today!

The thing is, it wasn't gross. I could press on her chest and extrude these half-inch thick ropes of green soft serve ice cream. Well, that's what it looked like. I found it utterly fascinating especially since it didn't smell at all.

Of course, her body couldn't fight the infection and she was dying so she went back into the hospital for a few weeks. I can't blame her for that. But before she went back, I had fun showing off to the visiting nurses how I could drain her sternum.

Yeah, I was kinda weird about it. But I'd seen her go through so much that a large quantity of green slime coming out of the center of her chest didn't really faze me. Or her, for that matter.

 

[msharley]

I don't get it.

Seeing as how many folk are DUMBER than a BAG of HAMMERS!

Mayhaps HAMMERS are smarter than many folk....??

 

[justmax]

Seeing as how many folk are DUMBER than a BAG of HAMMERS!

Mayhaps HAMMERS are smarter than many folk....??

Ahh, have not heard that expression before. Heard of a box of rocks, but not hammers. Oddly enough, just this week I had to explain to someone why I have over 20 sizes and types of hammers in my shop.

 

[TheDan]

When dogs have been altered to the point that when you close the door behind you to go to work you can understand your dog pleading with you from the other side of the door "Please, don't go!", a whole bunch of the ways people think about their relationship to other species will get blown apart. It will take generations, at least, for humans to make peace with those changes.

I already understand 80-90% of what my dog is telling me. It helps that she only really wants 7 or 8 things... I can usually narrow it down by asking her questions. She obviously understands several key words related to things she cares about, and her body language is very communicative. When I'm way off the mark she even has a way of looking at me like I'm the stupid one

 

[ZX9RCAM]

Yep.
It sure is frustrating when I go through the typical list and nothing registers.

 

[TreyG-20]

Proof of evolution. Wolf to couch potato. Exhibit A.

 

[kyletxria1911a1]

Proof of evolution. Wolf to couch potato. Exhibit A. View attachment 305698

No further questions yo honor da witness may step. Err roll down

 

[jordanmills]

To quote Monty Python, "And now for something totally different"...I will state some rather well documented facts regarding changes in modern humans and then I will pose a couple of questions.

Fact #1 - Cumulative knowledge grows exponentially faster than an individual human can comprehend or digest it all. As recent as 2-300 years ago, a good Doctor could know most all there was to know about practicing medicine. Now we have specific specializations.

Fact #2 - Physical changes/evolution of some humans have occured, for some known and some unknown reasons, in relatively short spans of time. In the same 2-300 years many modern humans have come to grow taller, reach puberty sooner, etc. Go past looking at changes over centuries and study some millennial changes and the same applies. Archeology has all but proven that in some modern humans, our little toes are getting smaller or maybe evolving away entirely. The study I read specifically referenced the cultural effect on genetics. In cultures where shoes were worn, the little toe was not needed for balance. This change crossed over sub-species (racial) and geographic lines.

Fact #3 - Over a short period of time, a high protein diet increases our intelligence (mind), and over a long period of time, it increases our cranial capacity (brain).

Opinion #1 - As equally important as intelligence, is the ability to utilize that knowledge gtat one has. A dolphin, elephant, pig, whatever, cannot build a space station without and opposable thumb to hold the tools, let alone inventing the tools to begin with.

And now for the questions that will probably start some shit or get the thread back on track to what the OP started.

Question #1 - What if a canine's dew claws evolved into an opposing thumb. Why do we often remove them. The same applies to the racoon, which I believe is in the family or even genus. Their problem solving ability seems to outshine dogs. Ask anybody that keeps chickens.

Question #2 - If modern humans possess sapience, are we not obligated to nurture, pass on, and propagate that trait?

Question #3 - Assuming the answer to question #2 is a "yes", are we as humans better off to train and/or genetically modify other primates to mine our resources or should we continue on the path of Artificial Intelligence in robotic machinery to do the tasks we humans don't want to do.

Inquiring minds want to know. And yes, I had nothing better to do tonight than to stir this pot.

I'm not convinced of fact 2. Even if it is the case, I think it's still clearly specialization within the species, and not creation of a distinct species (again, depending on who defines species). Not that you asserted otherwise, of course.

To question 1, might a dolphin not say the same about our lack of prehensile penis? Or might a super-evolved elephant not say the same about a human's lack of prehensile proboscis? Have you read Footfall by Larry Niven?

To question 2, what component of our biology dictates moral obligation? Or is your reasoning that this obligation comes from outside our biology (and its origins need not be debated here).

To question 3, a contrasting question: regarding such obligations, should we feel bound by obligations if those primates stumble into sapience themselves and not due to our actions?

Oh also, the most specific level of taxonomy shared by dogs and raccoons is order, "carnivora". They do seem pretty similar to not share a more specific level though.

 

[jordanmills]

For Fact 2 Part 1: I don’t know how much the height change is due to genetic change vs diet. So I don’t know that it can be directly called evolution. I mean, people in North Korea are pretty short.

Want some more weird stuff? If you take a group of that population out of the situation and change the circumstances, they would still have descendants that are short and slight for several generations, even though there is an abundance of food, and there would be no noticeable genetic drift in the populations. Epigenetics plays a significant role. No time now, but there's lots more to share on it.

 

[TipBledsoe]

Your opinion of the definition isn’t really relevant.

I wish I had the patience you have just shown to address each point so concisely. Too often, I just shake my head watch some more Gunsmoke reruns.

^ Yes, I appreciate your patience as well @Younggun

 

[prisondoc]

Proof of evolution. Wolf to couch potato. Exhibit A. View attachment 305698

He sure is cute! What breed of pooch would he be?

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[General Zod]

Opinion #1 - As equally important as intelligence, is the ability to utilize that knowledge gtat one has. A dolphin, elephant, pig, whatever, cannot build a space station without and opposable thumb to hold the tools, let alone inventing the tools to begin with.

Some chimpanzees and capuchin monkeys have been seen flaking rocks to create basic stone tools - a definite step toward more complex thought and capability. Chimps are also known to craft wooden tools - including scraping them to useful shapes and teaching their young how to make and use them. Their brains are developing. Watch out, they'll be riding horses and shooting rifles at us soon.

 

[TreyG-20]

He sure is cute! What breed of pooch would he be?

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I have no idea. He's short legged like a dachshund, mixed with whatever else. He's just a mutt. Picked him up as a stray a few years ago. He's adapted to inside life well and as you can see doesn't miss any meals or treats.

 

[Vaquero]

Yep.
It sure is frustrating when I go through the typical list and nothing registers.

If Mocha wants something, I just stand up. She will lead me to what she wants.
And she does understand way more words than I've ever tried to teach her.

 

[bbbass]

Walking upright and capable of speech are not always signs of intelligence!

Truer werds were nevah uttahed...