The 14" Mossberg shotgun that isn't NFA

[Renegade]

don't forget the USAS 12?

& Striker-12

 

[SC-Texas]

& Striker-12

This also brings into question every semi auto magazine fed 12ga on the market today.

Saiga 12 and the AR-10 based shotguns.

 

[satx78247]

SC-Texas,

Perfectly serious question, inasmuch as the BATFE (unless they've changed their "verbage" in the BATFE regulations yet again!) "officially" calls such a weapon, "a weapon made from a rifle or shotgun".

In their booklet that they (at least used to) distribute to LE agencies to "identify" firearms by type has "sawed off" in quotation marks after the "official designation".

ImVho, MANY things that BATFE says/claims/does make NO commonsense whatever.
(When I was a SSA for USACIDC, we got FOUR different & contradictory "readings" of the SAME regulation in one 5-day work week.)

yours, satx

 

[SC-Texas]

but on the Shockwave, if its an AOW:
1. its concealable
2. has no sporting use

I think that's the two factors at play on whether its an AOW under federal law.

So it could be a destructive device


Saiga 12 and is progeny would be destructive devices.

(4) The term “destructive device” means— (B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and



(C) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.



(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

(6) The term “short-barreled shotgun” means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

 

[SC-Texas]

SC-Texas,

Perfectly serious question, inasmuch as the BATFE (unless they've changed their "verbage" in the BATFE regulations yet again!) "officially" calls such a weapon, "a weapon made from a rifle or shotgun".

In their booklet that they (at least used to) distribute to LE agencies to "identify" firearms by type has "sawed off" in quotation marks after the "official designation".

ImVho, MANY things that BATFE says/claims/does make NO commonsense whatever.
(When I was a SSA for USACIDC, we got FOUR different & contradictory "readings" of the SAME regulation in one 5-day work week.)

yours, satx

I apologize I thought you were being sarcastic.

SC-Texas,

So my PLANNED "sawed off" double-barrel SBS (I won't "make" it until I have the tax stamp.) ceases to BE a shotgun after the barrel is "sawed-off"??

yours, satx

(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

(6) The term “short-barreled shotgun” means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

In this case, you are starting off with a "Shotgun" as defined by federal law. It was designed to be fired from the shoulder.
and that's it. It started as a shotgun. It cannot become a "firearm".

In short, it remains a shotgun. An SBS in this case. it could become an AOW. I know that isn't logical other than the registration aspect.

 

[SC-Texas]

SC-Texas,


ImVho, MANY things that BATFE says/claims/does make NO commonsense whatever.
(When I was a SSA for USACIDC, we got FOUR different & contradictory "readings" of the SAME regulation in one 5-day work week.)

yours, satx

no duh. call the ATF and ask them a question you will get different answers every day of the week.

 

[satx78247]

no duh. call the ATF and ask them a question you will get different answers every day of the week.

FYI, presuming that you read the last paragraph of my comment #83, you know that I said almost the same thing.
(My secretary that week said in regard to the different/contradictory readings of the same regulation: "Those cowboys over at ATF change their mind about as often as I change panties.")

Personally I believe that ALL BUT TWO federal LE agencies should be ABOLISHED & replaced with NOTHING. = WAY too many people trying to fumble around & figure out what actually needs doing.
(It makes ZERO difference which badge/creds that a federal agent carries.)

yours, satx

 

[SC-Texas]

Satx.

I was directly referring to and agreeing with your comment. Which is why I quoted it

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[SC-Texas]

And yes, the ATF is well known for changing its mind on the classification of items. I can think of numerous examples.

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[SC-Texas]

While we are at this, who can name all the firearms that are for sale and would be affected if the shock wave is illegal in Texas?


Franklin Armory

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[kotetu]

The problem with getting involved with firearms that are fit into a legal loophole defined by someone at ATF's decision is that people can change their minds. ATF is certainly not trustworthy enough to get yourselves involved in this.

 

[Hoji]

Thank you Sean for your detailed answer(s)

 

[SC-Texas]

Thank you Sean for your detailed answer(s)

No problem. I hope it makes more sense.

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[Shady]

I would guess every ar 15 pistol over 26" and it might make even the ones under 26 fit in to now being NFA

While we are at this, who can name all the firearms that are for sale and would be affected if the shock wave is illegal in Texas?


Franklin Armory

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[satx78247]

kotetu,

I trust NOTHING that the BATFE says/claims, as they are as changeable as the Summer breeze.
(I once bought a 9mm Lugar caliber carbine that BATFE decided was a MG. - Luckily I had NOT paid for or "taken possession" of it when the policy changed. = Had I bought it a week later, it would have required a tax stamp.)


yours, satx

 

[Renegade]

This also brings into question every semi auto magazine fed 12ga on the market today.

Saiga 12 and the AR-10 based shotguns.

Anything with a bore over .500 is a dd unless it gets a sporting use exemption.

 

[pharmaco]

Yes, I would.

You are posturing as a condescending flat brimmer, oh wait, you actually are a condecending flat brimmer.

When a very well known attorney comes into a thread and posts something as a solid fact, when other attorneys I , and others, have spoken to say something that is 100% opposite of what he is saying, yes, I am going to ask questions.

Now just to show that I did not come back just to trade insults with you:


https://pilotprom.com/clearance-oakley-holbrook-sunglasses-black-lens-matte-white-fram.html

Deal of the day for you.

I apologize, Hoji.
I didn't think you would be so hurt by my post that you'd feel the need to fabricate a fictional caricature that you don't feel inferior to.
If anything about my posts makes you feel inferior, please let me know via PM and I'll do my best to adjust to be more sensitive.
I'm not sure why you feel superior to people who wear flat brim hats and those style of sunglasses. Maybe a bully in your past?

Either way, I'm sorry I triggered whatever caused you to create that character.


On topic:

I think it's *good* to push the envelope with loophole items like these.

Look at the profession of dentistry.
They're famous for doing legally questionable things, and after long enough it just becomes common practice & legalized.

For example: there are dentists who run "sleep apnea clinics". Outside of creating a dental apparatus to help air flow and referring a patient to an M.D., a dentist has no business treating sleep apnea.
However, there are plenty of dentists overstepping their bounds and prescribing meds for sleep apnea.

Why?
Because they can get away with it.

Good on sig, mossberg, and other companies thumbing their noses at the ATF.



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[45tex]

Me thinks I will leave the shotgunlike thingy alone for the time being. I get much the same effect by folding the stock on my 870.

One thing however is bothering me. SATX What is a USACIDC SSA? Did you enjoy being one?

When I attended the UofH Academy way way back when, we were taught that if it walks like a Duck and Quacks like Duck it was not a short barreled shotgun, it was a whore and probably should be left alone. Depending on available backup. My how times change.

 

[satx78247]

45tex,

Check your mail, please.

yours, satx

 

[The Gunslinger_45]

I will pass on this for the same reason I passed on the Sig Arm Brace for my pending Scorpion SBR. Why play the loop hole game of chance when I can just just be patient and get the tax stamp?

Also I will add on to what was already said by certain members, namely Moonpie and Younggun. If you have to try to explain a law to a cop, you are already behind the 8 Ball. So you better be one very charming and convincing SOB because the odds are the police will not listen. Not because he/she is a dick, but for one very important reason. LEOs get lied to all the time and sometimes for the stupidest reasons. I can speak from experience on that. Even though you may be in the right, the cop is going to draw on all the times people have lied to him and it will likely fall on deaf ears and he will let the courts sort it out.

Now you might get the right sort of cop. One who is entrenched in the gun culture. One of that sort has a better chance of being in the know about these kinds of products. But not every cop is a gun nut. Especially since many agencies use a love of guns as red flags during the recruitment and back ground checks (I may or may not have had to sanitize my Facebook account for Spring Break photos in Georgia for that reason). But do you really want to take that gamble?