Ukraine invasion

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    General Zod

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    Feel free to show me. If I have done so improperly, I will apologize.
    Sure, lemme flip through the last 40 pages of this thread to satisfy you.

    Look, here's the deal. This whole discussion has descended into personal attacks and putting words in people's mouths. It's bullshit. It should be possible to discuss the issue without getting all jingoistic.
     

    easy rider

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    If you take a counter to your narrative as a personal attack, then possibly you should take a look in the mirror. I never called you a Putin lover. I may think you have been deluded by the politics of the matter, but I hadn't tried to attack you personally as I've seen you do to me and others.
     

    General Zod

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    If you take a counter to your narrative as a personal attack, then possibly you should take a look in the mirror. I never called you a Putin lover. I may think you have been deluded by the politics of the matter, but I hadn't tried to attack you personally as I've seen you do to me and others.

    I take it as a personal attack when I'm called a warmonger, when I'm accused of supporting the Biden administration, so yeah, I hit back. And I hit back at condescension, too. Sorry if you can't take that, but maybe you should be more mindful of what you dish out. If responding isn't ok, then that's too bad because I'm going to.

    I'll also remind you that I have tried repeatedly to end the debate between us, and you just can't seem to let it go.
     

    oldag

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    I am not now or have I ever been pro Russia in the political sense. I have just learned not to take everything on face value, especially if it comes from the corporate media. I used to call myself republican, because I felt my views were most inline with them. While I will vote republican in most cases, I know that many republican politicians are not much better than their democrat counterparts. I now call myself a libertarian leaning conservative. If the so called 'pandemic' taught me anything, it's that I have to question everything coming out of the government and their propaganda media.

    While I can sympathize for the everyday citizen of Ukraine, I am not convinced their government or military is politically inline with our own values. While I do believe the U.S. should help in humanitarian means, I don't believe it's our fight. There have been many conflicts throughout the globe, yet the U.S. seems only to get involved if someone can get rich off of it.
    OUR government is not in politically inline with our own values.
     

    oldag

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    I agree with H1.

    I'm not PRO-russia, but I'm also not a zel fan (he absolutely is a dictator) or on board with funding our proxy war with our weapons and/or billions and billions of our tax money.

    Well, why not?

    It's not 'OUR' war.

    When bidet abandoned our troops in Afghanistan and American civilians still there and those who helped us like interpreters and untold numbers of resources in the way of aircraft/weapons/ammo - at least, I thought we've finally stopped fighting wars that we have no business fighting.

    But, here we are again...and don't believe for a moment we don't have troops over there in addition to everything else we're giving them...

    What percentage of the billions we're providing are siphoned off to feed their corrupt politicians (or bounced back to our corrupt pols)...a little...a lot?

    No, we should bail out of uke - it's not our war to fight...
    While I do not agree with this, I understand the viewpoint and respect it.
     

    Coyote9

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    Raw numbers of inventory are not of use if they are mothballed and rotted from years of neglect. russia has used its best equipment as evidenced by loss analysis.

    I do not think it will take near that long to get the Leopards and Abrams to the front lines. The Abrams will take longer to get into service but the logistics are already in place for the most part to push the Leopards into battle fairly quickly.

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    Those timelines are the ones issued by the White House press room and German Army via Euronews interviews. Piecemeal introduction of armor will just simplify their destruction Belarus began taking it's armor out of storage and thru refit a month ago and began training with Russians on Belarus areas as they deployed. I am not in the cold war mindset of the Big Bad Bear however Stalin was not wrong when he claimed that quantity has a quality all of it's own. If the Russians employ their air forces and are willing to accept initial losses then the Ukranians cannot stop them in my humble experience. 21 year veteran Iraq Bosnia and even participated in one Iranian ship sunk.A strike leader and hundreds of joint planning scenarios but still just a guy with an opinion worth maybe a beer on a slow day.
     

    easy rider

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    I take it as a personal attack when I'm called a warmonger, when I'm accused of supporting the Biden administration, so yeah, I hit back. And I hit back at condescension, too. Sorry if you can't take that, but maybe you should be more mindful of what you dish out. If responding isn't ok, then that's too bad because I'm going to.

    I'll also remind you that I have tried repeatedly to end the debate between us, and you just can't seem to let it go.
    You mean when I said that "I'll be damned if I side with the warmongers that are fattening the pockets of military contractors"? That's you?
     

    General Zod

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    You mean when I said that "I'll be damned if I side with the warmongers that are fattening the pockets of military contractors"? That's you?

    That's the context I read, since you were arguing with me. But as I've also pointed out, for several days I've been trying my best to disengage from this argument with you. Let it rest. We don't agree. We won't agree. I don't know why you've latched on but let it go.
     

    TxPython357

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    I am not a fan of Russia or Ukraine. Is Russia a pariah and Putin a tyrant? Yes. Ukraine and Zelensky is only slightly better IMO. Is Biden and the MSM slow walking us into war? I believe so. Opinions as to why vary but in the end if WWIII breaks out (I believe there is a huge potential) will it matter then? Nope.

    From what I have seen, man isn't that smart, war has always come and always will, no matter the reason or circumstances.

    My humble opinion.
     

    easy rider

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    That's the context I read, since you were arguing with me. But as I've also pointed out, for several days I've been trying my best to disengage from this argument with you. Let it rest. We don't agree. We won't agree. I don't know why you've latched on but let it go.
    Reading comprehension. I also later said that I wondered how many politicians are invested in Raytheon.
     

    General Zod

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    Reading comprehension. I also later said that I wondered how many politicians are invested in Raytheon.

    LET IT REST. I'm done dealing with you. You've got a conspiracy theory for everything so I'm done.

    Twice today I've tried to disengage with you. What the hell is your problem? We disagree. Neither of us will change each other's mind. LET IT FUCKING REST. Move on. There is nothing to be gained here for either of us.
     

    easy rider

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    Look, none of what I said was meant to be directed at the members of TGT. I am far from believing anyone here has much effect on policies that are made abroad.
     

    cycleguy2300

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    Those timelines are the ones issued by the White House press room and German Army via Euronews interviews. Piecemeal introduction of armor will just simplify their destruction Belarus began taking it's armor out of storage and thru refit a month ago and began training with Russians on Belarus areas as they deployed. I am not in the cold war mindset of the Big Bad Bear however Stalin was not wrong when he claimed that quantity has a quality all of it's own. If the Russians employ their air forces and are willing to accept initial losses then the Ukranians cannot stop them in my humble experience. 21 year veteran Iraq Bosnia and even participated in one Iranian ship sunk.A strike leader and hundreds of joint planning scenarios but still just a guy with an opinion worth maybe a beer on a slow day.

    I think it *could* take as long as published to deliver them, but seriously doubt it. Also, these will not be the only tanks the ЗСУ has on the front, at worst they would be supported by other armor, but I think it reasonable to expect the Abrams especially to be used as units wholly comprised of Abrams. The logistics of their maintenance dictate that. I also expect the Leopards to be employed in Leopard only units, but they *should* be easier to maintain with its more traditional powerplant.

    I think Belarus is just saber rattling, as they have been doing since the war started. They cannot afford to become truly involved, but Ukraine cannot afford to ignore them either. Belarus also provides russia a safe non-beligerant state with maintenance and training facilities, also russia has been drawing down Belarusian munitions already so there is a reasonable chance the tanks they are prepping will be handed over to russia.

    I tend to think russia could gain complete air superiority if they were willing to take the losses, but manpads would make it very risky in the best case.

    We shall see...






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    Eastexasrick

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    “Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.

    Evil Incarnate
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