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What is Bill McCraven's problem with campus carry?

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  • benenglish

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    I am saying that I would value the opinion of someone who has BTDT over someone who has not.
    I really wouldn't, at least not in every case. Experience is valuable; no one denies that. But the experience of one person is not reliable data upon which to base policy (or even, if the person is honest, opinion). It is, rather, merely a collection of anecdotes.

    I can cite several anecdotes where experience with the guys sitting at the other table in the courtroom was a bad thing. For example, I once worked a legal project where all the expertise in the country was centered in Oklahoma. The Oklahoma office assumed they'd take lead. Their input was sought but we cut them out of the process almost completely. Why? Their experience had been entirely with criminals. They knew everything about how to be a criminal in the industry in question. Their experience led them to believe that everybody in the industry was a criminal. That was simply not true but they could not make rational judgements regarding the way the cases should proceed. "Kill 'em all; let God sort 'em out." was their attitude.

    It was precisely their experience that made them unqualified to control the process.

    Similarly, I spent many years as an Officer with a federal law enforcement agency. Generally speaking, everyone I investigated was lying to me and every witness was unreliable. Besides the opportunities for career advancement that switching job tracks brought me, my main reason for turning in my commission was that my experience had taught me that everyone in the world was lying or unreliable in every way. I even treated family with a sort of "I'll believe it when you prove it" attitude. That was not good for me as a person.

    A military person who has BTDT has the wrong experience to judge whether civilians should carry guns in particular locations outside military control. I will go so far as to say that the more they've BT and DT, the less reliable their judgement becomes. It has been poisoned by a lifetime of inapplicable anecdotes that pretty much every person in the world who has lived long enough will mistake, in their own lives, for wisdom.

    You say

    What I am reading here are a few folks who may have never served a day or may have never seen combat and who don't agree with a Navy SEAL on a hot button political issue so they disrespect him by marginalizing his service. That is not acceptable anytime, anyplace, or in any way and I take strong exception to anyone disrespecting a combat veteran's service for any reason.

    I would never disrespect a combat verteran's service. I would never marginalize that service. In fact, I'd say that if I wanted to know how to be a better Navy SEAL, there would be no better person to talk to than a Navy SEAL.

    But that doesn't mean I need to show the slightest respect to that person with regard (Specifically!) to times when they express opinions about things other than being a Navy SEAL.

    Being a military vet doesn't make someone qualified to make decisions about civilians carrying guns. Being a portrait painter doesn't make someone qualified to bid on repainting my garage. Being a Unix sysadmin doesn't make someone qualified to provide deskside support in an all-MS environment. The tools may look the same and the jobs may be tangentially related, but prior experience should never earn anyone an unquestioned pass about anything other than the very specific tasks in which they gained that experience.

    Maybe Bill McRaven knows the absolutely best solution to all questions regarding campus carry. I'm open to that possibility. I completely dismiss, however, the notion that his allegedly superior insight can be based solely on his prior military service. It simply can't. Different tasks produce different skillsets and insights that do not survive transplant from one career to another without substantial tweaking, tweaking to the point that they become unrecognizable.

    BTW - I think I've figured out that some of your early statements were not satire. Thanks for clearing that up. I appreciate it.

    This post has been about general principles and may fairly be looked upon as a waste of space in this thread. However, I look forward to how you respond to some of the more direct and specific questions that have been directed to you. Those responses should be illuminating.
    Texas SOT
     
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    Davetex

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    He is a professional warrior who knows what he is talking about...if he says that guns on campus is dangerous, then I trust his assessment a hell of a lot more than I trust the ravings of uninformed gun nuts who have never experienced a firefight but somehow feel that unrestricted weapon possession is a, "right." Carrying guns on campus is ridiculous...

    1396810570082.jpg
     

    Coop45

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    So, skinman.................a person should only be allowed to carry when his or her life is in danger? LOL!! Obviously you can predict the future. Good luck with that.
     

    satx78247

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    skinman; All,

    A person of GOOD JUDGMENT & HONOR remains a person of judgment/honor regardless of where they may be at any given moment.

    Otoh, a MORON, a FOOL, a BIGOT and/or an IGNORANT man remains those things, regardless of other factors, absent some highly unusual change in character/circumstance.

    For those reasons, "on campus carry" is a POSITIVE GOOD, inasmuch as one decent/armed person may stop a horror story like that of the movie house in CO and/or at Va Tech.
    (I've wished many times that my "younger brother of the heart" had been IN that theatre/school building with his long-barreled .44SPL revolver, as he would have ended that mass murder quickly & likely with one shot to the head of that monster. - Fwiw, he can routinely put 6 of 6 rounds into a quart oil can at 25M.)

    just my OPINION, satx
     
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    skinman

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    But that doesn't mean I need to show the slightest respect to that person with regard (Specifically!) to times when they express opinions about things other than being a Navy SEAL.

    I agree 100% with everything you said with exception to this comment. I respect everybody here who has a differing opinion, regardless of how far out there I think it is...even the ones who continue refuse to show me the same respect because they do not agree with my views on issues. I may not respect they way they are baiting and trolling, but I do respect them and their opinions no matter how far apart we may be.

    I look forward to how you respond to some of the more direct and specific questions that have been directed to you.

    There is a lot of baiting and insulting going on right now and I am trying to make it a point to try to not respond to those who are not attempting to engage in genuine debate and discussion...and, there are quite a few here in this topic and others. One of the most ugly things happening in politics today is the inability of all sides of an issue to show common courtesy and respect to ideology and points of view that they do not share.

    I do not agree with open carry and I have plainly spoken up to express my reasons, but I will respect those who choose to open carry if it happens to become law. The worst part in all of this is the time the Texas Legislature is wasting on this nonsense while so many far more critical needs face our state today. Education, our roads, healthcare, the list is long and the time is short, yet it is being wasted debating an issue of such insignificance to the future prosperity of Texas.

    I have been shooting with some of these folks and I know they are good people, even the person who thought he was cute by calling me a faggot. We all may not share the same political views but we do share a love of guns and shooting.

    I have viewpoints on many issues that are extreme opposites of a lot of the regulars here, and I argue them with the same passion as they do, but I will not intentionally disrespect any one of you simply because of what I think of your opinions. Nor will I back down and run either.

    Peace, out.
     
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    Couyon

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    ... I have viewpoints on many issues that are extreme opposites of a lot of the regulars here, and I argue them with the same passion as they do, but I will not intentionally disrespect any one of you simply because of what I think of your opinions. Nor will I back down and run either.

    Peace, out.

    Do you know what the term "tea bagger" means? It is a reprehensible, deragatory term that sick people have yelled at my elderly parents. Thankfully, my parents didn't understand the significance.

    You must know that many folks here are supporters of the Tea Party. As much as your viewpoints differ from those folks, you should really refrain from intentionally disrespecting them based on their opinions. Or not...
     

    Younggun

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    Now, disagree and argue your points with respect and intelligence or KMA.

    Do you believe a college is an inherently safe place to be as apposed to other locations?

    Do you believe that someone who intends to do harm will not do so on a college campus because guns aren't allowed in the buildings?

    Do you believe the presence of a firearm makes a place more dangerous?

    Do you believe the current requirements for a CHL are not strict enough or that the classroom or range portion is inadequate?



    .

    How can we have a discussion if you aren't willing to answer a few basic questions?



    Still waiting.......


    These questions are relevant to the conversation. It would be foolish of me to assume your opinion and base my posts on false assumption. If you are willing to discuss this as you say, it would seem in line to give me more information on your point of view.
     

    Renegade

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    The worst part in all of this is the time the Texas Legislature is wasting on this nonsense while so many far more critical needs face our state today. Education, our roads, healthcare, the list is long and the time is short, yet it is being wasted debating an issue of such insignificance to the future prosperity of Texas.

    All of those issues will be addressed, perhaps not to your (or mine) liking, but they will be addressed.

    One of the reason Texas prospers in tough times is all of the ""insignificant issues" add up to one big issue.
     

    Renegade

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    He didn't address any of my points either.
    Must be a pick-n-chooser.

    He ran over to the Ted Cruz thread to bad mouth him and conservatives in general. Always wonder why folks who seem to hate everything about Texas continue to live here....
     

    satx78247

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    Renegade,

    GOOD QUESTION.
    (Even though I want to see J.C. WATTS run for & be elected POTUS, I like Senator Cruz & find him FULLY QUALIFIED.)

    A personal note to ALL: Anyone who calls members of The Tea Party "baggers" are generally too STUPID to bother with. Personally, I ignore their BIGOTRY, FOOLISHNESS & ARROGANT IGNORANCE & "consider the source".

    yours, satx
    Member, SATP
     
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    Odiferous

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    William McRaven and Stanley McChrystal are both bona fide warriors - not only before they achieved Flag rank, but before as well. In fact, both men (and David Petraues, come to think of it) accompanied combat missions while serving as Flag Officers, exposing themselves to direct combat. Militarily, I have the utmost respect for these men. McRaven doesn't "believe" in guns on campuses, and McChrystal doesn't beileve that civilians should own AK/AR-type rifles. So be it. Do I respect them? Sure. Would I vote for either if they ran for political office? Nope.
     

    Chirpy

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    Full Disclosure: My daughter is a UT faculty member & will carry concealed on campus if "on campus carry" passes. - She is NOT a leftist & in my opinion we need more like her.

    She may not be able to, even if it passes. While the bill will permit students to carry who meet the requirements, her employment agreement may still stop her from carrying on campus. That's my situation on a different campus. Unless the employment agreement changes, it stays in the parking lot.
     
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